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Jatopian
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icon Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (+3)  
I considered making a thread about this on the public boards but decided I didn't want to bother wording things really craftily in order to avoid hinting at what The Other Big Project is. Might recreate this thread on public boards or ask a mod to move it there, once it's released.

I know that Caravel experimented with Deadly Music of Death - which is no longer visible from the website by the way, nor is there any sort of site map, not that one can still order it anyway - and didn't seem to succeed. I think it's time to consider doing something like it again.

Currently, unless I'm mistaken, the only non-piratical alternative is to buy a $20 obsolete DROD engine and dig through the forum for some tool, I think it's called MetaKitExtract? And that doesn't get you the "new, extended version" of "Ancient Machine", which I've often wondered about but never felt could be worth $15 on its own.

Frequently when I play games, especially Flash games, if the music is good enough I look for a way to obtain that music. So I was thinking, at least for the JtRH tracks, that you could put the music up for sale on a pay-for-download service like Bandcamp. And since you aren't selling a physical CD it could be cheaper. And since it's a Flash game that you're offering for free it should definitely be cheaper. Not to mention that it's not really much of a step down, since you're coming from "selling so poorly that you discontinued it".

So let's say $5, with an option to pay more (yes, you can do this, and yes, people actually take you up on it sometimes), or if you're feeling hubris-filled and thematic $8 (don't do this. go with the $5.) Put the extended "Ancient Machine" mix on as a bonus track you can only hear by buying the album, and say you're bringing it back for those who never had the chance to hear it. There might be some legalities to look into with the title music and "Uncovered". I'm not really sure about those, but the rest of the soundtrack there's no reason to leave out.

So why would this do better than the DMoD CD did? Well...
* You aren't selling them a CD. But Jatopian, isn't a CD a value-add? No! No it is not. Rather the opposite, in fact. You could conceivably have a physical CD bundle option if you must; Bandcamp lets you do that. But I, like many, feel physical CDs are unnecessary expense and bulk in this world of pocket-sized computers that hold all my music. If you only give me the CD option I feel like you're charging me a large portion of whatever you're charging because of a dated storage medium I don't like.
* You aren't selling them AE tracks that are public domain anyway.
* And of course, this time you're giving them all the JtRH music and letting them choose which ones to listen to, instead of limiting them to only the tracks Erik liked best.

Speaking of the AE tracks, another thing you might be able to do is offer them as bonus tracks. Right now they're all available freely... but only in OGG format, whereas one of Bandcamp's things is that you upload the WAV files and they let consumers choose their preferred format.

The best part about this idea is that as far as I can see it doesn't have any risks or any startup cost aside from some time. I think it deserves serious consideration, and soon, since if implemented the release would be best timed before or concurrent with the Flash DROD debut.

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 05-16-2012 01:03 AM : re: AE tracks]
03-10-2012 at 11:11 PM
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slimm tom
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (0)  
Very cool idea! I went through the trouble of extracting the JtRH music files a while ago to get them to play in TCB whenever a JtRH style was used, and to be able to listen to it when I want to. It's an enormous hassle, and it would be great if one could buy the music somewhere.
03-10-2012 at 11:16 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (0)  
I agree this is a neat idea. I'm not sure I have the rights to sell Erik's music just like that, though. I'll ask him for permission when I have time to persue this project.

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03-10-2012 at 11:20 PM
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Jatopian
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (0)  
Another thing you might be able to do is offer the AE tracks as bonus tracks. Right now they're all available freely... but only in OGG format, whereas one of Bandcamp's things is that you upload the WAV files and they let consumers choose their preferred format.

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03-12-2012 at 06:23 PM
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skell
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (0)  
The same day all JTRH+ musics are avaialble for pay-per-download I will get'em all!

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03-12-2012 at 06:30 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (0)  
Bumped for publicity.

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03-20-2012 at 06:18 PM
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Bombadil
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (+1)  

Read and seconded the motion for great justice!
03-20-2012 at 06:58 PM
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kyevan
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (+1)  
I totally agree this would be great. Hopefully Erik's cool with it once you ask him!

Actually, with DROD4 coming out soon, a release of the TCB music might not be a terrible idea either... that might have a separate set of legal issues, but mrimer, you're in a FAR better position to know about and navigate those than I am! :lol

(Side note: are any parts of TCB made weird, mood-wise, by having it play the JTRH music in the JTRH styles? I bought JTRH for the hold at the same time I bought TCB and it'd be nice to move the music over, but I don't want to make TCB weird if I ever actually finish JTRH. (Side side note: NASA jargon is probably more intuitive than DROD jargon, eh?))

[Last edited by kyevan at 03-20-2012 07:31 PM]
03-20-2012 at 07:28 PM
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slimm tom
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (+1)  
In my installation, the appropriate JtRH music plays in all JtRH level styles. Since the TCB hold has levels in which the JtRH style is used, it will play there also. However, I don't think it sounds weird or ruins anything at all.], in fact, I think it adds to the experience a lot. User-made holds will also use the proper music when playing.

If you want, I can give you a DROD.ini file with all music references in it, which you can use if you'd like the JtRH music in TCB. You'll still need to extract the music files, but instructions on how to do that are somewhere on the forum already.

(By the way, I've set it up so that I never know which title music is going to play when I open my DROD installation. I think it's a neat effect!)
03-20-2012 at 07:56 PM
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Banjooie
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (0)  
I prefer the idea wherein you don't have to mod DROD to sound right.
03-20-2012 at 08:11 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (0)  
Banjooie wrote:
I prefer the idea wherein you don't have to mod DROD to sound right.
I agree with you completely. We're (slowly) working toward that goal. But, as you know, the problem with standards is that there are so many of them.

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03-20-2012 at 10:08 PM
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Bombadil
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mrimer wrote:
Banjooie wrote:
I prefer the idea wherein you don't have to mod DROD to sound right.
I agree with you completely. We're (slowly) working toward that goal. But, as you know, the problem with standards is that there are so many of them.

http://xkcd.com/927/

kyevan wrote:
Actually, with DROD4 coming out soon, a release of the TCB music might not be a terrible idea either... that might have a separate set of legal issues, but mrimer, you're in a FAR better position to know about and navigate those than I am! :lol

Jon Sonnenberg said that he plans to release the TCB (and F&M) music "soon" in digital format. Maybe if Caravel could contact him about this they could reach an agreement to release also the TCB music.
03-20-2012 at 11:52 PM
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kyevan
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slimm tom wrote:
If you want, I can give you a DROD.ini file with all music references in it, which you can use if you'd like the JtRH music in TCB. You'll still need to extract the music files, but instructions on how to do that are somewhere on the forum already.

I'd appreciate that! I'll try to hunt down the extracty-tool too...
03-21-2012 at 10:20 AM
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slimm tom
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kyevan wrote:
I'd appreciate that! I'll try to hunt down the extracty-tool too...
Sure, I've attached a copy here. I'm not sure if there's any other references in there you might not want, so I think you should double-check before installing.

The tool is called MetaKitExtract, I believe, made by Stefan.
03-21-2012 at 11:00 PM
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Keiya
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (+1)  
Okay, where the hell do I put drod.ini to make it actually load it? I've tried in the program folder, and the virtualstore version of it... if there's something in appdata, it's ridiculously well-hidden.

Edit: Apparently the Hints and Solutions magic works for the entire forum. It's in C:\ProgramData\Caravel\drod-3_0

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[Last edited by Keiya at 03-28-2012 10:39 PM]
03-28-2012 at 10:30 PM
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (0)  
I never heard of Bandcamp but every way I could get a grip on the fantastic music is a good one.

Alternative, Spotify? Although you won't get rich with it and the business model turns a lot of musicians off.

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04-17-2012 at 01:05 PM
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Moo
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (0)  
Maybe slightly off-topic, but this is the best music-related thread I could find that isn't too ancient.

Is there any thoughts about returning to a tracked music format? It would mean much more music could fit in the same amount of disk space the oggs currently take up, which could only be a good thing. FMOD, which DROD uses, supports several such formats. I presume disk space is the main limiting factor for the amount/length of music anyway. As a comparison, AE's 58 minutes of music take up less space than 5 minutes of GatEB music.

One hears the same 1:30-approx track many times while playing, and longer tracks would be great. Aside from the repetition, 1:30 doesn't give much scope for a "well fleshed-out" track - it's almost time to finish by the time you've got started.
04-17-2012 at 03:00 PM
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The Architest
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (+1)  
Moo wrote:
Maybe slightly off-topic, but this is the best music-related thread I could find that isn't too ancient.

Is there any thoughts about returning to a tracked music format? It would mean much more music could fit in the same amount of disk space the oggs currently take up, which could only be a good thing. FMOD, which DROD uses, supports several such formats. I presume disk space is the main limiting factor for the amount/length of music anyway. As a comparison, AE's 58 minutes of music take up less space than 5 minutes of GatEB music.

One hears the same 1:30-approx track many times while playing, and longer tracks would be great. Aside from the repetition, 1:30 doesn't give much scope for a "well fleshed-out" track - it's almost time to finish by the time you've got started.

I don't think there is need to return back to tracker music. I loved the music in AE, but Sonnenberg's music fits.

Fun fact; me and Erik use the same program to make music, I figured this out by listening to samples.
04-17-2012 at 04:22 PM
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Bombadil
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The Architest wrote:
Fun fact; me and Erik use the same program to make music, I figured this out by listening to samples.

Awesome!

By the way (even more offtopic) since the AE music files must be MIDI-like, do you know if there is any way to get the score out of them? I'd like to make a real-instrument covers of some of the songs when I have the time.

04-17-2012 at 06:15 PM
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (+1)  
If it is a tracker format this may come in very handy. It might be a bit confusing at first though ;).

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04-17-2012 at 06:27 PM
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Moo
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (0)  
The Architest wrote: I don't think there is need to return back to tracker music. I loved the music in AE, but Sonnenberg's music fits.
Need? No. But could be good. "Tracker music" doesn't mean it has to be in any particular style...
Quite possibly the newer music is in a format that could be converted into something FMOD would play, if it's not already, anyway.

Fun fact; me and Erik use the same program to make music, I figured this out by listening to samples.
I'm pretty sure AE uses some of the original instruments from 1987/88, so the choice of instruments doesn't really reflect the program used.
04-17-2012 at 06:32 PM
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The Architest
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (+1)  
I don't think you can turn ogg. files back into s3m. ones.

http://www.bluemoon.ee/history/scwin/ This is the tracker, quite easy one to use!

I guess you would have to ask Erik for original s3m. files; that way you could open them in a tracker and switch samples, make them longer etc.

Moo, the samples in Sound Club are exclusive to it only (as aware I am), so I am sure it is that one. Erik probably wanted to be on safe side, because samples within Sound Club are free-to-use.

But then again, you might correct.

[Last edited by The Architest at 04-17-2012 07:02 PM]
04-17-2012 at 06:36 PM
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skell wrote:
If it is a tracker format this may come in very handy. It might be a bit confusing at first though ;).
Thanks skell. I'll look into that.

The Architest wrote:
I guess you would have to ask Erik for original s3m. files; that way you could open them in a tracker and switch samples, make them longer etc.

I seem to remember that the installed version of AE had the s3m files somewhere, so getting those should be no problem.
04-17-2012 at 07:12 PM
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Moo
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The Architest wrote:
http://www.bluemoon.ee/history/scwin/ This is the tracker, quite easy one to use!
Looks like you were right.

Some of the samples it has are at least very similar to "classic" ones though...

And yes, AE has the s3ms as individual files.
04-17-2012 at 08:53 PM
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (+1)  
Bombadil wrote:
By the way (even more offtopic) since the AE music files must be MIDI-like, do you know if there is any way to get the score out of them? I'd like to make a real-instrument covers of some of the songs when I have the time.

Sorry to continue an :offtopic but if I understand what you are asking, and if the files are MIDI files, they can be imported into Sibelius which will give you the score to work with. Importing MIDI files sometimes leaves the Sibelius file needing a bit of cosmetic 'tweaking' but is generally quite successful. It may also be possible to import MIDI into Notion3, but I am not so famiiiar with it.

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04-17-2012 at 09:19 PM
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Bombadil
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Elfstone wrote:
Sorry to continue an :offtopic but if I understand what you are asking, and if the files are MIDI files, they can be imported into Sibelius which will give you the score to work with. Importing MIDI files sometimes leaves the Sibelius file needing a bit of cosmetic 'tweaking' but is generally quite successful. It may also be possible to import MIDI into Notion3, but I am not so famiiiar with it.

The songs are not MIDI files. They are S3M which I have no idea about how they work, but judging on how much they weigh and the sound they make I can imagine they are similar to MIDI files. Then maybe there is a program that allows conversion from S3M to MIDI. Then getting a score from a MIDI file is easy (with Sibelius as you say or a similar software).

EDIT: I can get a MIDI of the songs from OpenMPT, but it is pretty messed up (some notes missing...) and the instruments are changed (this is not that bad).

[Last edited by Bombadil at 04-18-2012 09:16 AM]
04-18-2012 at 09:09 AM
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (+1)  
S3m, Mod, Med and others work in such a way:

1. Sounds are stored as they are (eg. as wavs)
2. Melodic line is saved as WHEN, WHICH sounds is played at WHAT pitch.

Yea, pretty much it, Wikipedia is so much smarter than me though ;). The program I have linked few posts above can save tracker music as Midi.

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04-18-2012 at 09:16 AM
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (0)  
Sorry to be even more off-topic, but what on earth happened to the "are" in my post of 17-04-2012 at 21:19. When I click edit/delete it looks perfectly all right. :~( Elf(mystified)stone

(Edit - added screenshot, because people in Chat can 't see it)

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[Last edited by Elfstone at 04-18-2012 07:50 PM]
04-18-2012 at 07:12 PM
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Bombadil
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Elfstone wrote:
Sorry to be even more off-topic, but what on earth happened to the "are" in my post of 17-04-2012 at 21:19. When I click edit/delete it looks perfectly all right. :~( Elf(mystified)stone

(Edit - added screenshot, because people in Chat can 't see it)

I guess it is because of the "off-topic smiley" (that is too large vertically) and the italics not combining well together.
04-19-2012 at 08:52 AM
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Moo wrote:
The Architest wrote:
http://www.bluemoon.ee/history/scwin/ This is the tracker, quite easy one to use!
Looks like you were right.

Some of the samples it has are at least very similar to "classic" ones though...

And yes, AE has the s3ms as individual files.

Well, The Way Down had some percussion samples named "sposm". Those weren't part of the exclusive ones, so it could be something classic.
04-19-2012 at 02:01 PM
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