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Trickster
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icon Hold the Riddle of the Bar Compilation...? (attn: Architects) (0)  
I'm opening this topic to discuss the possibility of producing a compilation hold for the recent "Hold the Riddle of the Bar" contest of June 2011. There have already been legitimate concerns raised about whether or not this would be a good idea, including:

* telling the same story five times might be boring to players
* polish/fixing would be needed on some rooms
* some architects included rooms in the contest which they want to keep private for use in later or upcoming holds
* each hold is three stories large so merging them would create an unnatural monstrosity, not unlike Clammato

I would like to volunteer an idea for addressing these issues; however I have no strong opinion (so feel free to shoot this down). I would be willing to do an extensive edit to merge the holds into a single cohesive story which would preserve the majority of interesting puzzles and artwork, minus any rooms or features that the architects would prefer to withhold. If I did this, I'd need to get the four other architects to β-test the result with me (to preserve the integrity of their works).

techant, Penwielder, da Rogu3, BoyBlue: would you be open to this, would you prefer a more traditional compilation, or would you prefer no compilation at all? Also: if you do want a compilation hold, are there rooms you want to withhold entirely, or change?

To proceed we would also need a cursory nod from west.logan (for the fabulous voice work) and DiMono (the contest lead).

Again, I'm not committed one way or the other, but I would be happy to proceed if others would like to. Just let me know what you think. I would be able to start work on this after I return from Mayo Clinic (a week from today).

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07-03-2011 at 06:45 AM
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Jatopian
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icon Re: Hold the Riddle of the Bar Compilation...? (attn: Architects) (0)  
quote:
Trickster wrote:
* telling the same story five times might be boring to players
Evidently people managed to put up with it and vote in the contest. No one forced them.
quote:
* polish/fixing would be needed on some rooms
No better time to do it.
quote:
* some architects included rooms in the contest which they want to keep private for use in later or upcoming holds
It can't be more than a few rooms. If they aren't horrible, tedious rooms I don't see an issue with playing them twice. Victory demos and all. Not to mention that I can easily see someone saying they'll totally publish a room later and then not doing so for whatever reason.
quote:
* each hold is three stories large so merging them would create an unnatural monstrosity, not unlike Clammato
You haven't played some of the larger holds, I see.
quote:
I would be willing to do an extensive edit to merge the holds into a single cohesive story which would preserve the majority of interesting puzzles and artwork, minus any rooms or features that the architects would prefer to withhold.
I really, really don't want to fight over people's personal definition of "interesting". Sounds like a good way to engender ill will.

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07-03-2011 at 07:46 AM
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Blondbeard
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Usually it's done via a hub-level, and an easy way to return to the hub, so you can walk among the holds. I don't see a huge issue with the same story multiple times. For one thing you don't have to play it all in one sitting. I, personally, would probably like a traditional hub-level compilation better than the merged super hold you seem to be sugesting.
07-03-2011 at 09:41 AM
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da rogu3
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Honestly I don't see the point of a compilation at all. It's not like the Lunchbreak special compilation, where there were over 20 entries, here there are only 5. If someone wants to play the entries they can just download them from the contest page, it's not that much effort. A compilation wouldn't have that much of an advantage.

The room in question is from my hold. The Village:3N, is a room from my hold in Architecture (which will be published very soon).
quote:
By "essentially the same" we mean that the puzzles can be solved by the same solutions.
I guess I could add some random roaches on the end of my room to make it different.

(but I'm strongly against a compilation being made)I've changed my mind. Go ahead and make it :)

[Last edited by da rogu3 at 07-04-2011 03:09 PM]
07-03-2011 at 11:22 AM
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mxvladi
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da rogu3 wrote:
Honestly I don't see the point of a compilation at all.[...]A compilation wouldn't have that much of an advantage.


Highscores! Also, not everyone who actively plays user-made holds(and thus, could play and complete the entries) even checks contests board.

[Last edited by mxvladi at 07-03-2011 11:39 AM]
07-03-2011 at 11:37 AM
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da rogu3
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Ah, guess I forgot about those. More 1st places for you then :P
07-03-2011 at 11:39 AM
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larrymurk
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I vote for making it into a hold. I enjoy playing the published holds and could easily miss holds entered in contests but never published.
07-03-2011 at 12:46 PM
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Tahnan
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Yeah, I think it's less about the high scores and more about making it available to a broader audience. I personally also favor changing as little about the holds as possible--fixing backtracking issues and typos, yes, but I also see the compilations as a useful way of archiving entries, so it's worth keeping them as is.
07-03-2011 at 12:56 PM
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west.logan
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I don't have any problem with my work being used.

However, I do agree with some of the sentiments here.
I would really like to see this made into a compilation, or released individually, partially for high-scores, partially so it shows up on my "played holds" list, and partially so others can enjoy it (honestly, after this contest any new people will probably never play it).

Also, I would prefer to see a traditional compilation with a hub room. There could be a scroll there explaining what the hold is (Contest, June 2011) and then a scroll next to each stair case or warp zone describing the architect and perhaps even his place in the contest. You could even include the original story if you wanted, condensed if necessary, covering the essential points.

People downloading the hold would then know what they were getting into (same story, told 5 times in different ways) and could choose which holds they wanted to play within the hold.

I don't see any reason to combine them all into a super-story and think that would detract from each architect's original design.

Also, I don't see any problem in making each level a distinct level (i.e. 15 levels, 70 rooms). Thems are my thoughts.

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07-03-2011 at 02:03 PM
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Jacob
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I vote that these holds be made into an official hold.

An idea (don't know how viable it is): showcase the story in one holds (pick the one that did it best - probably the one with speech attached), and then remove the story elements from the others.

This stops the experience from repetitive. Plus, I found that in some entries the story itself wasn't at all clear. (Boyblue's entry is an excepetion, since the story was used in a more abstract way)

Edit: I realise this is less feasible with a non-linear hub based hold (which is the best way to do a compilation), but it could be made clear that hold X alone showcases the story, to remove repetition.

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[Last edited by Jacob at 07-03-2011 06:53 PM]
07-03-2011 at 06:51 PM
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Dischorran
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:huh

Has there ever been a compilation hold that didn't just link all the entries in original or minorly fixed form from a hub room?

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07-03-2011 at 07:29 PM
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Jatopian
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Yeah, the I Ching contest forced you to go through them all in a preset sequence. Most people quit around the room of the thousand orbs. The hub setup is really the way to go.

Also oh no 70 rooms. That's like... one-fifth of KDD. The horror. :\

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 07-03-2011 08:20 PM]
07-03-2011 at 08:19 PM
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DiMono
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I also think it's a bad idea to compile the holds into a single compilation hold, mostly because I'm afraid people will notice they're doing the same thing over and over and get tired of it, which would do a disservice to whoever's holds end up in the second half of the compilation. After more thought since running the contest, I'd rather a compilation hold not happen.

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07-04-2011 at 02:26 AM
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west.logan
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quote:
DiMono wrote:
I also think it's a bad idea to compile the holds into a single compilation hold, mostly because I'm afraid people will notice they're doing the same thing over and over and get tired of it, which would do a disservice to whoever's holds end up in the second half of the compilation. After more thought since running the contest, I'd rather a compilation hold not happen.


Again (see above), I don't see that as so much of a problem if you clearly state in the hub room what this hold is. I mean, all of us went through them all.

And I think that if most of the people are playing these holds for the stories and not the puzzles, then they're probably disappointed by a good many holds...in other words, more puzzles=better. People might not even notice they're doing the same thing over again.

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07-04-2011 at 02:33 AM
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west.logan
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Trickster wrote:
Zero architects have said "I want to be in the compilation"


You want to do it. I'm strongly in support. I don't want to see these holds pass into oblivion.

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07-04-2011 at 02:39 AM
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TFMurphy
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Someone remind me... how many holds do we have with the following story: "Beethro gets a job to clear a dungeon. He does so, and then gets paid."

I'm also of a mind to ask the following questions. Of those who played the Cheap Trick Contest Compilation, who felt they had to play *all* the holds to actually enjoy it, rather than just a selection before they moved on? And of those who played the Copycat Contest Compilation, who got bored of playing the same style of rooms in the same rough order several times in a row?

I find the answers to these questions are very pertinent to this topic.

Whilst it may be that individual architects may wish to use the rooms they made in some other manner, I do not see any particular 'story' or 'similarity'-based reason why a compilation of this contest should not happen (especially given that all story is skippable within a few seconds with the Space bar).

EDIT: I suppose it's also worth noting how many pieces of architecture have fallen into obscurity and neglect in both the Contests and Architecture boards. It's all very well saying "well, if people want to play it, then they can just find the topic and download it", but how many people here have played, say, Remlin's Tough Room, for example?

[Last edited by TFMurphy at 07-04-2011 03:13 AM]
07-04-2011 at 03:09 AM
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It seems silly to NOT make a compilation for this contest on the grounds that people would get bored hearing the same story N times. There are lots of good things in these holds, and giving it all a permanent home on the Holds board and in the highscores sounds like a great idea.

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07-04-2011 at 03:29 AM
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quote:
Trickster wrote:
quote:
da rogu3 wrote:
(but I'm strongly against a compilation being made)
This is sufficient reason for me to step down from the suggestion.
With all due respect to da rogu3, he's fairly new here and doesn't have the historical perspective that others have expressed. (For instance, he's right that anyone could go and download from the competition thread, but he may not realize that no one will.)

Now, if da rogu3 doesn't want his hold included in a compilation, that's absolutely something that should be respected. But one architect not wanting to be in a compilation isn't a reason to reject the entire compilation.
07-04-2011 at 04:06 AM
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Jatopian
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quote:
da rogu3 wrote:
Honestly I don't see the point of a compilation at all. It's not like the Lunchbreak special compilation, where there were over 20 entries, here there are only 5. If someone wants to play the entries they can just download them from the contest page, it's not that much effort. A compilation wouldn't have that much of an advantage.
This has been debunked by others.
quote:
The room in question is from my hold. The Village:3N, is a room from my hold in Architecture (which will be published very soon).
Is it too tedious to play twice or something? If so, maybe you should remove it from your architecture hold, rather than pulling your hold out of the compilation.
quote:
(but I'm strongly against a compilation being made)
Why? Why is very important.

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07-04-2011 at 05:07 AM
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da rogu3
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Jatopian wrote:
Is it too tedious to play twice or something? If so, maybe you should remove it from your architecture hold, rather than pulling your hold out of the compilation.
No it's a pretty good room, but do HAs actually allow the same puzzles twice? "5. Your hold is bad if it's essentially the same as a hold already on the Holds board (even if the older hold is your own, or if you have permission to copy it). By "essentially the same" we mean that the puzzles can be solved by the same solutions."

But if a compilation is to be made, then using my entry is fine by me. (it would be pointless having a compilation which doesn't contain all the entries)

quote:
Tahnan wrote: For instance, he's right that anyone could go and download from the competition thread, but he may not realize that no one will
Well that sucks :/ OK so ignore what I said earlier, go ahead and make the compilation. (but I'd like a HA to answer my question about duplicate puzzles)

Edit: Oh and is there a reason why previous contests like Reflectorations and Everyman Eigth Games don't have compilations. (the other day I downloaded a few holds from the contest and they were pretty cool)

[Last edited by da rogu3 at 07-04-2011 08:49 AM]
07-04-2011 at 08:37 AM
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Well... I'm a HA, not very active nowdays, but still. You don't have to worry. There are some compilation holds, which is a merging of several existing holds. That is bad (from a highscore point of view).
07-04-2011 at 12:50 PM
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Blondbeard wrote:
Well... I'm a HA, not very active nowdays, but still. You don't have to worry. There are some compilation holds, which is a merging of several existing holds. That is bad (from a highscore point of view).
Since I found the above reply slightly confusing, I'll clarify a bit.

Compilation holds consisting of holds that are already published on the holds board - "H I J K" and "Tacker Triology (DVD Architects Cut)" come to mind - are frowned upon, because even though both of those compilation holds had added content, most of the rooms in them were already published. This is undesirable from a high score perspective, for obvious reasons. However, contest compilation holds are a different matter, because the rooms in those have not been previously published. Thus it doesn't create the problem of duplicated high score effort. Even if an architect wants to use individual rooms from the contest compilation in a later work, I have no problem with it, as long as the entire level/hold isn't copied as is.

quote:
Trickster wrote:
I would be willing to do an extensive edit to merge the holds into a single cohesive story which would preserve the majority of interesting puzzles and artwork, minus any rooms or features that the architects would prefer to withhold.
I agree with Tahnan that the compilation should be as close to the original hold entries as possible. Fixing typos and backtracking problems are okay (and even required in some cases), but any more changes than that shouldn't be done IMO. If the architect wants to significantly change a room, he/she can put the changed room in a separate hold.

Furthermore, the fact that the storyline is the same for all the contest entries is not a problem. It was, after all, part of the contest rules to follow the same story.
quote:
Jatopian wrote:
Yeah, the I Ching contest forced you to go through them all in a preset sequence. Most people quit around the room of the thousand orbs. The hub setup is really the way to go.
Agreed. Note, however, that the I Ching contest compilation was done with AE, so a working hub setup was not strictly possible (progress wasn't saved across levels).

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07-04-2011 at 02:39 PM
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da rogu3
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Stefan wrote: Even if an architect wants to use individual rooms from the contest compilation in a later work, I have no problem with it, as long as the entire level/hold isn't copied as is.
Thanks, that's cool. Trickster, my stance right now is for you to go ahead and make the compilation (if you have permission from everyone else), and I won't be making any changes to my entry (although some others need to be fixed)
07-04-2011 at 03:13 PM
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As comments about how tedium isn't a valid objection have been put forward, allow me to rephrase mine: I'd rather a compilation hold not happen yet. As everyone should be aware by now, the current thread of contests are all linked together, and I might have plans for some of the holds that would benefit from them not being available in the Holds area of the site.

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07-04-2011 at 04:52 PM
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Jatopian
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Stefan wrote:
Note, however, that the I Ching contest compilation was done with AE, so a working hub setup was not strictly possible (progress wasn't saved across levels).
You could still return to the hub. Bavato's Dungeon had stairs backward and all, and it was an AE hold. It was only to get them in one hold and on the Holds board, after all. It's academic now, I suppose.
quote:
da rogu3 wrote:
Edit: Oh and is there a reason why previous contests like Reflectorations and Everyman Eighth Games don't have compilations. (the other day I downloaded a few holds from the contest and they were pretty cool)
The reason, as far as I know, is simply that no one compiled them. Either there were no plans, or people waited too long and forgot about them. It's too late now unless we want to compile them without the permission of everyone involved. Hopefully that won't happen this time.

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07-04-2011 at 08:24 PM
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Jatopian
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DiMono actually raises an interesting point, but I still feel that we should do it while it's on our minds, so it gets done.

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07-05-2011 at 11:25 PM
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quote:
Trickster wrote:
To facilitate the secret in da Rogu3's gallery, I'd like to request that completion of that room be optional (I would add the ability to exit to the "hub" without solving that room).
Why? Just make the room unrequired instead, that way it can still be behind the blue door. I don't want rooms to become optional when there's already so few puzzles there.
07-06-2011 at 10:08 AM
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techant
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Sorry didn't see this thread. Yes you can include mine that was why I made it PD. Also, I support the hub concept for a compiled hold. Maybe even place how each hold scored so that players know which ones to play first.

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07-06-2011 at 10:42 AM
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da rogu3
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Sure, that's fine then. I suggest putting in a scroll explaining how the room was made optional in the compilation. (something along those lines)

I give permission, but how exactly will you make the goblin challenge secret?

Also won't this clash with the master door in your entry?
07-06-2011 at 03:23 PM
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The nice thing though is that the master door is right at the start of your hold, so it's not like you have to trek through ten already-cleared rooms to get to it.

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07-06-2011 at 04:44 PM
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