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Is there life on Europa?
After analyzing the information, I have concluded the possibility is high.
Although I haven't analyzed all the information, I have a strong notion life exists on Europa.
I have studied the information but have not reached a conclusion.
I have not studied the information and have not yet reached a conclusion.
I haven't looked at much of the information, but I doubt life exists on Europa.
I have studied the available information and concluded life is unlikely to exist on Europa.
Meh. I don't really care. I'm just here for the cheese cubes.
What's Europa?
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12th Archivist
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icon A Big Question: Life on Europa? (0)  
As of the 18th of June, 2010, life on Europa has not been confirmed through scientific observations.

Alright! It's time for invigorating discussion! If you read the topic and poll questions, you should have realized by now that this is poll is about your opinions on the unanswered question of "Is There Life on Europa?" If you haven't realized that by now, well... read the last sentence. Here's a bit of information on Europa.

What I really want here is discussion, discussion, discussion. Explain your opinions, and keep an open mind. Oh yeah, no flaimbateing please. Doing that just makes you lose the argument.

I'll check on how this is doing over the next week or so. Hopefully, you guys are talking about the topic question and not talking about how immature or incompetent I am for making this, or, worse yet, there are no posts at all.

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06-19-2010 at 12:43 AM
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Jatopian
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I am not qualified to answer this question, and I rather doubt anyone else here is either.

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06-19-2010 at 12:59 AM
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Jatopian wrote:
I am not qualified to answer this question, and I rather doubt anyone else here is either.
Totally true. OK, everyone. Give your opinion on the subject. Don't try to definitively answer the question.

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[Last edited by 12th Archivist at 06-19-2010 02:04 AM]
06-19-2010 at 02:04 AM
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noma
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Cheese is tasty. That's an opinion of mine, and it might be useful for someone inviting me over for dinner. Whether or not I think there might be life on Europa, or any other celestial body, is not of much use to anyone. While scientific inquiry should always be encouraged, it must be objective, based on observation, facts, theories, hypotheses and investigation, and not on opinions, which are subjective and often based on emotion. I'm sure scientists have opinions and these may influence what they research, but hopefully they don't let it influence how they conduct that research. Our opinions on this matter are pointless and discussing them is a waste of energy. They won't change the reality, which someday may be discovered through exploration, observation and testing.

Actually, now that I think about it, knowing people's opinions on this question could be useful in one area; if enough people consider an idea possible, it could influence how governments allocate their budgets. However, that would be simply be determined through an opinion poll, as discussions would not helpful. Hmm. If I was of a suspicious mind, I'd wonder if someone has a homework assignment and is trying to get material for it. ;)
06-19-2010 at 02:28 AM
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Heh. No, this is not a homework assignment of mine. I'd love it if it was though.

A waste of energy you say? That's... somewhat insulting. Considering none of us have the capabilities of objectively qualifying and quantifying the truth on the matter yet, it seems as if opinions are the only thing we can talk about with any amount of certainty. But if you guys don't want to hypothesize, that's not really something I'm going to speak against.

Shucks. I wanted to see what you guys had to say on the matter.

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06-19-2010 at 05:20 AM
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Blondbeard
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I really don't understand this attitude. I'm convinced that speculation can, and have, played a great role in many scientific discoveries. For example: as far as I know science fiction have in many cases driven real peoples to do real discoveries.

Without the speculation of weither it was possible to reach the moon or not we might never have reached it. And in particular we would not have spent the resourses necesarry if everyone was so blasé that discussing their opinions on the subject was considered a waste of energy.

In this case I have no way of knowing anything, but I can speculate. I'm quite convinced that life could exist on Europa, since life seems to be able to exist on the most extreme places on the earth (like below the ice of arctic, and at the very bottom of the sea by volcanic openings). If we got the knowledge necesarry to design life, and knew what we were doing, I think it's likely that we could create microscopic life that could live on Europa.

The question is what life needs in order to be spontainiously "created". Here I'm a quite sceptic. I kind of think we should have found traces of other "types" of life on earth if life was easily "created". How come everything everywere seems to be related? If it was likely for life to come to be there might have been created (at least) two kinds of life, with no genetic relationsship to each other. That does not apear to be the case.

And since I would guess that it is a lot harder for life to come to be on Europa I would guess that we won't find life there, although I would be very pleased if we did.

Sorry... I know I don't use the english language correctly. I hope it's not too much of a problem.
06-19-2010 at 06:14 AM
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Briareos
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Since I'm speaking German I can definitely answer that yes, there is life in Europa.

/thread

np: Anthony Rother - Big Boys (Popkiller 2)

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06-19-2010 at 01:00 PM
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noma
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My sincere apologies 12th: that sentence could have been worded better. I really did not mean to insult you or anyone else. It was the word "opinion" that got me going. It's a bit of a hot button for me: I've gotten into more than one heated "discussion" that went round and round to nowhere except exhaustion, because the persons involved aren't interested in discussing facts, or even speculating on possibilities; they just want to convince you based on their opinions and feelings. After a recent argument that was particularly infuriating, I'd decided these sorts of "discussions" just aren't worth it; they were a "waste of energy." That's where that comes from. But Blondbeard is correct, and that's what I alluded to when I mentioned that opinions can influence what gets researched and what gets the public's attention. Maybe I shouldn't have been so hardline: discussing the facts and merits of an idea is very interesting, and yes, even speculation can be fun. But your message had said 'give opinions' and I kind of pounced on that. So sorry. And for the record, for the same reasons that Blondbeard mentioned, I too feel that life on Europa is possible. There is also a recent article by Chris McKay, an exobiologist, about the possibility of methane-based life on Titan that you can google if you're interested.

[Last edited by noma at 06-19-2010 02:13 PM]
06-19-2010 at 02:09 PM
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Apology accepted, noma. The only reason I used the word 'opinion' was because that's the general term I use when referring to a person's thoughts on an uncertain, unresolved subject. Perhaps in the future, other terms such as 'theories' or 'hypotheses' should be used instead.

I would have to agree with Blondbeard. I don't really understand how life begins absolutely (with no preceding life to have generated it). However, life on Earth seems to have done exactly that, seemingly spontaneously appearing and creating more of itself. Perhaps it wasn't spontaneous. Perhaps it was the slow mutation of something typically inanimate into something animate. I really don't know, though. Perhaps I should study the origin of life more extensively, to get enough facts to reach a more logical and reasonable conclusion, with an exclusion of faith alone.

Lastly, although I didn't vote and instead chose to view the results of the poll, I would have put my vote somewhere between the first and second option. I have reviewed many objects of information and the theories they caused, but not all of them. For example, what is the carbon percentage of the sections of Europa most likely accessible to potential life? If the amount of carbon is low, life beyond bacteria such as hydrothermal-based tube worms or even pseudo-fish are unlikely to have formed well, assuming there were equally few elements that could have substituted carbon, such as phosphorus.

Here's a Wikipedia article on Abiogenesis, or the origin of life. I'm looking into it now. If any of you are interested, take a look at the information as well.

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06-19-2010 at 06:55 PM
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icon Re: A Big Question: Life on Europa? (+1)  
ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS EXCEPT EUROPA. ATTEMPT NO LANDINGS THERE.

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06-19-2010 at 09:31 PM
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Dischorran wrote:
ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS EXCEPT EUROPA. ATTEMPT NO LANDINGS THERE.
A Space Odyssey, right? ;)

My comment probably ruined the joke, though...

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06-19-2010 at 11:26 PM
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Blondbeard wrote:
The question is what life needs in order to be spontainiously "created". Here I'm a quite sceptic. I kind of think we should have found traces of other "types" of life on earth if life was easily "created". How come everything everywere seems to be related? If it was likely for life to come to be there might have been created (at least) two kinds of life, with no genetic relationsship to each other. That does not apear to be the case.

It's a possibility (I am insufficiently qualified to put a probability on that possibility) that life arose on Earth many times in the formative years, but that early competitors with RNA for the role of dominant molecule lost (died off) - and now our oceans and atmosphere have been so reshaped by descendants of RNA that no new molecules stand a chance of getting out of the starting gate. As for descendants of RNA - all early competitors with our ancestral bacteria were doomed when one of those competitors - mitochondria - formed a symbiosis with the prokaryotes. That pretty much limited life on Earth to one apparent "type".

That being said, I thought someone had discovered something rather incredibly distantly related or possibly unrelated to the rest of the life on Earth near some ocean volcanic vents some years ago, I'll have to google that to refresh my memory. (edit: turns out they're still related in the sense of being descendants of our Prokaryote/Mitochondria-fusion ancestors)

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[Last edited by silver at 06-22-2010 10:40 PM]
06-22-2010 at 10:21 PM
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silver wrote:
It's a possibility (I am insufficiently qualified to put a probability on that possibility) that life arose on Earth many times in the formative years, but that early competitors with RNA for the role of dominant molecule lost (died off) - and now our oceans and atmosphere have been so reshaped by descendants of RNA that no new molecules stand a chance of getting out of the starting gate.
But why? Why would the reshaped atmosphere be a harsher environment for new life than the initial setting? I mean... I don't have any problems understanding how survival of the fittest works, but it just doesn't seem self-explanitory to me that life with two different roots shouldn't be able to co-exist on the same planet. Of course one would probably be hughly dominant, but that's not the same thing as saying that every singel cell of the other "type" of life would necesarrily be exterminated.

silver wrote:
That being said, I thought someone had discovered something rather incredibly distantly related or possibly unrelated to the rest of the life on Earth near some ocean volcanic vents some years ago, I'll have to google that to refresh my memory. (edit: turns out they're still related in the sense of being descendants of our Prokaryote/Mitochondria-fusion ancestors)
That's interesting. But it would have been even more interesting if that life wouldn't have had a common root with life as we know it. And that's exactly the type of environment I think we ought to have found an altogether different type of life in, if life on Europa was probable.

Of course another theory altogether is that of panspermia(one root of life being spread across the universe by meteors). If that theory (unprobable as it might be) has any merit to it we might find life on Europa that is related to us.

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 06-23-2010 07:53 AM]
06-23-2010 at 07:53 AM
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My weak understanding of why another form of life wouldn't show up on Earth now is basically that all the good atoms and basic molecules are bound up into molecules and cells which our basic type of life "likes" - the seas are no longer rich beds of free floating proteins waiting for someone to cannibalize or organize them. That and it's cooler now - making it harder for molecules to break apart and get over the energy humps that make them settle into simple molecules - so they rarely "go over" and settle into more complex valleys just over the "energy hill". And, finally, that there is less influx of unbound raw material from the core and cometary impacts.

Yah, the vents disappointed me, too. But surely we haven't explored all the vents, and each is probably a unique ecosystem, since the critters that thrive in the really hot chemical rich vents are unlikely to survive migration across cold, relatively unrich ocean to another vent.

I'm iffy on panspermia. It seems like it's just putting off the ancestor question another step and eventually someone's gonna want to explain how the life got where ever it "came from".


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06-23-2010 at 09:46 AM
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Review from a former advisor. Go find it at your friendly local university. Also keep an eye on the Szostak lab.

As for the multiple lifeforms question, my money's on the stable development of a self-replicating system being a low enough probability event that it's not likely to happen twice on the same planet. But we don't know yet.

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06-23-2010 at 03:50 PM
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