NiroZ
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Maurog wrote:
Oh, I understand that's it's a conscious decision, generating hype and cashing in on enthusiasts and favorable reviews, then sweeping people like me with bargain prices a few months later.

And there's never been a misleading demo?

Jatopian
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Question: How is making a demo hard? From what I gather, you chop off most of the levels/world to give a taste of everything and no more, add a new ending screen, keep saves compatible.

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 01-05-2010 05:01 PM]

NiroZ
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Not entirely sure myself. Possible reasons include: what to showcase, justifying completing those bit's first(assuming this is done pre-release, afterwards it's be more of a question of is there a point?), Q&A, ensuring the demo can't be used to pirate the full version, optimisation (after all, just the game engine alone these day's tend to be multi-gigabyte affairs) and compiling.

I heard it off a game review site, and it's been echoed IIRC, several times since then. I'm sure mrimer could elaborate.

mrimer
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Yeah, making a demo is pretty easy...except for all those things. The devil is in the details. And the time it takes to recognize and account for those details.

When making DROD demos, we needed to take into account obscure issues like making sure that when the demo official hold is completed, that the game and CaravelNet don't think that the full game is conquered, even though it's the same hold. But, it's not *really* the same hold -- it's a copy of the hold, renamed and with everything but the demo content removed in order to slim down the demo download. So we need to make sure that saved games transfer properly across levels in the demo and full version, even though the hold and level IDs have changed by making copies of them. And then we need to record separate title screen demos for the demo version, because we have fewer game areas available than in the full version. And, of course, we need to make sell screen content and media assets. In TCB, for instance, we have 10-15 minutes of recorded dialogue for the demo sell screen alone. And then there's making and distributing separate demo "wad" data files and builds whenever a new version comes out.

For an indie company on a shoestring budget, it feels like a relatively large chunk of "extra" development, that comes at a time when the team is long since ready to take a break. That being said, it has still always felt necessary to invest in this in order to properly showcase our products, and I can't imagine why a high budget game wouldn't have the resources remaining to dot these i's and cross these t's. I'd rather pay developers and graphic artists for another month of work making a demo version than to spend an extra million in marketing propaganda, claiming that our game is teh awesome, even though you have to buy it before you can really be sure.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 01-08-2010 05:17 AM]

Briareos
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Well, for what it's worth - Torchlight 2 finally has a release date: 20th of September, 2012.

It has lots more of everything (including LAN and online play) compared to the first one, but it's still the same low 20 USD price point at release...

(Also, judging by the week long semi-open beta of the first act: it's very awesome. Oh, and if you pre-order the game now on Steam you'll get a free copy of Torchlight 1 which can be gifted if you already own it...)

EDIT: for what it's worth - here's the 30 minute video of the Q&A session with Max Schaefer and Travis Baldree from PAX which (considering the last posts above for TL1) included the fact that there'll be a demo out on release day...

np: Squarepusher - E8 Boogie (Hard Normal Daddy)

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[Last edited by Briareos at 08-31-2012 11:00 PM]

Banjooie
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Well, it certainly didn't hurt them to wait for Diablo 3's release.

I haven't touched that thing in /months/.

Briareos
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So, besides the game finally getting released tomorrow - Runic have also put the soundtrack by Matt Uelmen (of Starcraft, Diablo, Diablo 2 and Torchlight 1 fame, among others) up as a free MP3 download on their site:

http://www.torchlight2game.com/news/2012/09/18/the-torchlight-ii-soundtrack/

So if you happen to like any of his previous work (or orchestral soundtracks in general) you surely won't be disappointed by this...

np: Matt Uelmen - Temple Steppes (Torchlight II Official Soundtrack)

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Banjooie
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So this game looks pretty go
> can't respec stats

Well back to Guild Wars 2

Maurog
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Kids these days take it all for granted, why in my days you couldn't even spec stats, you'd get a point in a random stat and you'd like it. Love it even! And you didn't get them for mindlessly killing innocent creatures, oh no, you'd go into some dungeon (both ways uphill) and kill some boss for it, tough as a tarrasque and ten stories tall, with weak points like one pixel wide. On its back. And it would shoot lasers and breathe fire and throw hedgehogs at you. Damn hedgehogs! What was I talking about, again?

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Banjooie
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No, if you levelled randomly, I'd be cool with that. It's not like you'd get yelled at in multiplayer for getting a series of bad rolls.

Lack of respec in a multiplayer game is just poor game design. There /will/ be a correct spec, and you /will/ be shunned for not using it. The idea behind not including respecs is to encourage creativity and basically figuring it out yourself and planning.

Noone is going to plan. The correct build will be on GameFAQs in about a month.

Oneiromancer
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The lead designer didn't want any respec to be in Torchlight 2 at all--the original game didn't have it, but a mod did come out that let you respec for a fee. In the sequel, you are able to respec your last 3 skill points, but I guess not stat points. Still, I don't care too much about stat points in a game like this--skill points are more important. And with this respec option, you can at least try out a new skill and if you don't like it you can get a refund.

Not that I've played Torchlight 2 yet; I have such a huge backlog of unplayed games on Steam that I'll just wait for a sale. At the rate I'm able to play, it will take me years to get through what I have, and I still keep buying more when they're on sale. It's not healthy.

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Banjooie
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Intentional poor design doesn't somehow make it better.

Torchlight 1 can avoid respecs because it's a singleplayer game.

It is completely unacceptable in a multiplayer game.

Rheb
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Isn't Torchlight 2 a single player game too though?

I have no idea how hardcore the end content in Torchlight 2 might be, but my feeling is the game will be played mostly in the same fashion as Diablo 2. Focusing on single player or casual multiplayer through the main campaign. If you have added on hardcore end game content it doesn't really change anything, you can just ignore that, as it isn't the main thing the game wants to deliver.

I often like games with no respecs, as it feels like the specs matter and define your character, and also calls for some planing ahead.

Unless I've misunderstood the point of the game completely I really don't see a problem here.

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Banjooie
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If I could see exactly what every single skill point was going to do, and what every ability looked like at /level 1/, yes. I would accept no respecs. As it is, I could throw a lot of points into an ability that from 1-20 is fantastic, but from 80-100 is useless, and then I have wasted 20 skill points.

I used to play Maple Story: The correct way to play mage used to involve never buying any actual magic attacks for the first ten levels, so that you would not screw your max MP.

These things happen in games like this, so either I have to read a guide to get the correct build, or risk being useless at max level.

This is terrible design. Deal with it.

Edit: Here, to continue, because I imagine you guys actually need this explained to you for some reason.

You don't include the respecs so that the Raaaa Hardcore people feel like they are superior to the people who have not rolled 4-5 characters to determine the maximum DPS final build.

These people are going to hit max level and then get very bored unless content is devised for them--it will exist! It existed in Diablo II. It is content that I, being a casual who will maybe hypothetically roll but /two/ Embermages at most, will find myself at 100 completely unable to touch because I did not build 'correctly'.

Do not tell me 'oh you can ignore that'. You can hit max level in any MMO and have no idea what you're doing whatsoever the entire time. It might take longer, but you will. Ergo: The relevant part of these games is either skillfully levelling quickly, or whatever the endgame is. Both require a masterful knowledge of how to build your character.

Torchlight does not give me a reliable means of doing so. I don't even need it to be free. I'm okay with it requiring some elaborate effort, or even if it's only doable once.

I might play it once the guide to how to place my points is front of me, but until then I'm not wasting my /and/ my friend's time making an Embermage who can't complete the content my friends will eventually want to do. I don't /want/ to blow 40-50 hours every time I find out I put a skill point in incorrectly.

Edit-again: For instance, I guarantee you any and all optimal builds will involve NOT spending skill points for a very, very long time until you unlock higher abilities. Spending stat points optimally will depend on you knowing what top-level equipment will have for stat requirements, which you can't know at lower levels.

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[Last edited by Banjooie at 09-22-2012 09:24 PM]

Briareos
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Banjooie wrote:
*snip*

What is this I don't even

First of all, it's quite hard to make a build that's totally useless, and even then you're supposed to play the game to have fun, not to analyze, plan and execute your every move... so what if your build doesn't work any longer from a certain level? Make a new one, then.

(Also, you do know the game has a debug console where you can reset your char to level one then add stat and skill points? Sure, it'll flag your character as suspicious in multiplayer, and the console itself will be disabled in multiplayer with the next patch because ROFLstomping other people by spawning level 100 boss monsters next to level 1 players is sooo fun but nothing stops you from hopping into single player to mangle your character...)

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R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

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[Last edited by Briareos at 09-23-2012 02:10 AM]

Jatopian
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Briareos wrote:
so what if your build doesn't work any longer from a certain level? Make a new one, then.

How long does it take to make a new build and then get back to max level? I'm guessing that it's not instant.

Do you realize that time is not a renewable resource?

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Banjooie
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First of all, it's quite hard to make a build that's totally useless, and even then you're supposed to play the game to have fun, not to analyze, plan and execute your every move...

So you agree that we should have respecs, then, so you can just play the game and have fun, and if you screw up, be able to fix it, right?

Oh. Oh, no, you go on to say I should blow another 60- hours to see if I get it right -this- time.

See, maybe you didn't actually play Diablo 2? But the correct way to play Diablo 2 was to not actually play Diablo 2 until about level 40-50, but rather to have people run you through everything to powerlevel you so that you could spend skillpoints correctly; you see, the builds that are actually viable for Hell difficulty endgame /aren't playable/ for the first 40-50 levels, because they require you to put points in things in such a way that you basically can't kill anything until you're set up.

Mostly it was things like 'do not spend skill points until you unlock X ability, then put a few points in there, then do not spend skill points until--'

Respecs allow for experimentation and trying new things. Unless you're retired or really goofing off at work, you're not going to blow 60 hours into getting a character to max level repeatedly until you figure out the correct build that makes you not useless.

See, the real trick is gonna be when you find out which class to play; all four are not going to be endgame viable. Remember, the people who made this made Diablo 2, and the people who made Diablo 2 think it is completely okay that only a few of the classes are capable of doing endgame content.

See, in a singleplayer game, all that's fine. You can have a goofoff useless character who's hard to beat the game with, whatever. As soon as your friends have to choose between 'you' and 'another friend who does three times the damage', you're going to find your enjoyment of the game suffer.


I'm sorry that this is how video games actually work nowadays, but they do.


Edit: oh my god your post makes the assumption that singleplayer mode in Torchlight 2 is meaningful

oh goodness

oh goodness you are adorable

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[Last edited by Banjooie at 09-23-2012 06:54 AM]

Maurog
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Maybe the correct way to play Torchlight 2 is to not actually play Torchlight 2 until the correct build comes out on GameFAQs.

Why are you playing the game Banjo you noob.

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Banjooie
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Yeah, I'm just waiting for the correct build order to come out, honestly. The game looks pretty fun besides, though.

edit: okay so apparently there /are/ respec potions --game not nearly as bad now!

I will totally resume playing now.

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[Last edited by Banjooie at 10-03-2012 01:45 AM]