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Caravel Forum : DROD RPG Boards : RPG Architecture : Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (Currently looking for some decent optimizers to play the first level.)
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Thelas
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icon Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (+3)  
I have attached the first level of my as of yet untitled RPG hold.
I would like decent optimizers, testers, architects... anyone, really, to play through it and inform me of:
a. Any bugs and/or unintended solutions
b. Your stats at the scroll in Thrice North, Once West. (It will tell you that that's where I need your stats).
c. How good you'd say you are at optimizing in RPG holds (out of 10).

I might as well say mine...
a. None that I've found and haven't fixed.
b. 448 hp, 13 atk, 16 def, 1 gr, 11 rep. No keys, foil sword, no other items. (By the way, that's the information I wanted from you).
c. Negative three out of ten.

And by the way, as you can tell from the fact that I've given stats, I have tested the level myself and guaranteed that it's possible.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Thelas
09-01-2009 at 02:07 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (+1)  
Is it intentional that in 2N1W, it's possible to sidestep the wraithwing or the yellow door by stepping diagonally, and therefore exit to the North without interacting with either?

In 1N2E, it's possible to move diagonally and sidestep any of the pressure plates, and grab everything in the room.

Other than that, still working on the level; looks good so far.

EDIT:

Here's my statistics upon reading the scroll:

HP: 927
ATK: 19
DEF: 13
GR: 4
REP: 4
Keys: 0/0/0

Score = 157

The above takes into account being able to move diagonally in the secret room, so the above statistics will probably not be attainable once you fix this issue.

===

I'd rank myself as decent, but not great at optimizing. I know how it's done, and how to come out of situations with more hit points or having taken fewer enemy attacks, but I'm not a master by any means. Probably 5 or 6 our of 10.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 09-01-2009 02:27 AM]
09-01-2009 at 02:18 AM
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Thelas
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (0)  
Thanks... I knew I was missing diagonals somewhere.
Fixed version attached to this message.

Also, where did you get that last point in ATK? My count only gets 18, even with the glitch.
*Rechecks level*
Oh, right, I skipped the roach in Once West.
Thanks for the help, and if you wouldn't mind replaying that level without the diagonals now that there are Ortho Squares there, please?

Thelas
09-01-2009 at 02:56 AM
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Tahnan
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (+1)  
I suppose it depends on how much that one blue gem is worth to me. Either:

HP  512
ATK 19
DEF 11
GR  16
REP 26
Score 150


or

HP  457
ATK 19
DEF 12
GR  21
REP 31
Score 142


(though I bet I could have saved a few hit points here and there if I'd gotten that blue gem sometime before the last minute).

I don't think I'm an especially good optimizer; I just tackled "Four Rooms" earlier this evening and failed to get through it. Again.

Among the things to note are:

This is a fairly sparse layout. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and I get a little frustrated by things like Four Rooms where there's a monster, door, potion, or what-have-you at every other step. On the other hand, it feels like wandering through a lot of empty space.

And: my attack and defense may be higher than you expected (though lower than Chaco's, since I could only pick one thing in the secret room; I went with attack). That's because...

Click here to view the secret text

09-01-2009 at 10:33 AM
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Thelas
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (+1)  
Okay, fixed.
Thanks for all the help.
New changes:
- (Custom) Boss added
- Scrolls (To people from the Architects Forum) removed b/c boss has been added.
- Getting both in Roach Queen room fixed. Reward for killing Roach Queens added.
- Score checkpoint upon killing boss added.
Please test the new version and give me stats at the score checkpoint.
Once it's been sufficiently tested, I'll add Level 2.
(Boss has been verified killed with 512/17/11 (note: these were stats before fight), thanks to the Playtest Button).
EDIT: Forgot to attach file. Fixed.
EDIT 2: Just retested Roach Queen room. Don't download this version, you can still cheat it. (Left here for my reference).
EDIT 3: Removed old version, attached new version. Roach Queen room should be fixed now.

[Last edited by Thelas at 09-01-2009 03:03 PM]
09-01-2009 at 01:27 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (+1)  
Defeated First Boss!

HP: 525
ATK: 20
DEF: 12
Keys: 0/0/0

Score = 149

You can still get all the gems in the roach queen room if you do it Tahnan's way. I don't think this is a bad thing though. It rewards you for choosing the harder option of killing the queen first. I would put this room back the way it was.

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09-01-2009 at 02:57 PM
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Thelas
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (+1)  
Good point. I was thinking that maybe it was a bit too much...
I'll just toss out the +ATK and +DEF gems below the queens if I'm leaving it that way, though.
Assuming that the gem you took was +ATK...
You don't need to replay it until level 2 is done, though.
Now for an architecture question.
I want to create a monster with stats of 1/400/0 that always strikes first, basically forcing you to take 400 before you can kill it.
How do you do the always strikes first part?
EDIT: Actually, I have a different thing I'm doing to make you take the 400, but I'd still like to know the answer.
Thelas

[Last edited by Thelas at 09-01-2009 03:18 PM]
09-01-2009 at 03:14 PM
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slimm tom
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (0)  
Thelas wrote:
How do you do the always strikes first part?
I'm no expert here, but one way to do it is to have the monster be sworded, and forcing the player to step onto his sword in order to attack him.

[Last edited by slimm tom at 09-01-2009 03:16 PM]
09-01-2009 at 03:16 PM
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Thelas
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (0)  
Yeah, that works and it's more elegant than my solution, so that's what I'm using. Thanks.
09-01-2009 at 03:23 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (0)  
"Behavior Attack first"

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09-01-2009 at 03:24 PM
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slimm tom
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (0)  
Nuntar wrote:
"Behavior Attack first"
The downside of using this behavior is that you need to make the player aware of the change of behavior for that particular monster. (At least that's what good architecture dictates.)
09-01-2009 at 03:25 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (0)  
The downside of using this behavior is that you need to make the player aware of the change of behavior for that particular monster. (At least that's what good architecture dictates.)
The player should already be aware of it, if he knows how to use the damage calculator or right-click.

Talking of behaviours, you want to set "Imperative hide stat changes" on the script that sets the player's ATK and DEF at the start of the hold.

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 09-01-2009 03:41 PM]
09-01-2009 at 03:34 PM
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Thelas
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (0)  
I have scrolls in front of each of the areas (one that tests hp, one that tests atk, one that tests def).

Is there any way to test DEF that's less ugly than HP: 900001 ATK: # DEF: 0?
(Before anyone asks why 900001, it was originally 9001, but then I checked and saw that someone with one DEF too few could feasibly kill that.)


09-01-2009 at 03:36 PM
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Nuntar
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That's the best method I know of. Unless you simply use scripting to create a square you can't step on unless your DEF is high enough.

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09-01-2009 at 03:44 PM
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Thelas
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (0)  
-Level 2 complete!
-Minor changes in level 1 made.
-Stairs in level 1 now lead to level 2.

Btw, is this hold actually at all fun so far, or just boring? (Rate out of 10: 1-boring to the point of causing unconsciousness ; 5 - average; 10 - awesomely fun).

Actually, I'm not 100% sure if this level is possible because I'm awful at optimization and my stats are so far below you guys by the end of level 1, but I am 99% sure it is.

(Hold attached).
09-01-2009 at 05:08 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (+1)  
Defeated First Boss

HP: 636
ATK: 20
DEF: 13
Keys: 0/0/0(/0)

Score = 154

Second level: scroll says you need 15 DEF to get past the Gray Man; should be 17.

The skeleton key is easy to get; just blow up the bombs, walk in and take it.

Second Boss Down!

HP: 916
ATK: 32
DEF: 21
Keys: 2/0/0/1

Score = 295

* * *

As for how fun this is, it's okay. The large empty rooms are a bit tedious to walk through, especially when you're entering them for the first time. If you're going to create dark rooms, you should use the light elements more so it's easier to see where you're going.

The really big problem is the freebies. You'll find out when you get more experienced at hold design, the fact that the game suddenly becomes much easier when you pass certain ATK and DEF thresholds is a problem you have to work against, not exacerbate. Giving out freebies when the player passes a certain ATK and DEF basically means either the hold's too easy if you get them (as Level 2 is here) or it's impossible if you don't (which may also be the case for your Level 2, judging by your comment). By the time I reached the boss he was doing zero damage, definitely a sign that the balance is out of kilter.

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 09-01-2009 06:13 PM]
09-01-2009 at 06:04 PM
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Thelas
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (0)  
Bleh. I should have fixed those already, what's wrong with me?
The Gray Man was originally 15 ATK, but I decided that 15 DEF was too easy to get.
The key was originally closer, but I was worried about it being possible to get without doing some sort of crazyness to kill that enemy. And by trying to remove any chance of that, I made it possible.

Also, the reason the boss is so easy is a misscript. He's a bit harder now. And by a bit, I mean a lot.
Freebies no longer free, new version attached.
Oh, and for the darkness, how do you make non-dark rooms? The dark ones seem to be the default.

[Last edited by Thelas at 09-01-2009 06:20 PM]
09-01-2009 at 06:12 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (+1)  
Here's my two score checkpoints for defeating each of the two bosses:

Click here to view the secret text


Some notes:

Level 1

*In Level 1 3N1W, you should probably change the color and/or name of the boss from "Swordsman" so it can be distinguished from the standard Swordsman enemy, which has different statistics.

Level 2

*In The Entrance, there's no way to get back to Level 1, making some of the rooms in level 1 (particularly with wubbas) kind of pointless, since you can't backtrack to them.

*In Once South, you should probably change the color and names of the Gray Man and Swordsman characters to indicate that they have different statistics. The Gray Man's ATK is 17, so you should probably change the nearby scroll to tell the player that the DEF requirement is 17 or higher, rather than 15 or higher.

*The deal in Level 2 1N1W (100 HP for two Mad Eye hits) isn't profitable until the Mad Eyes do 49 damage or less per hit, which requires 46 DEF or more - a lot more than the player can have on this level, or perhaps even in the next level.

*Once North Once East is a trivial room. Instead of lighting the fuse, just stab the mud blob, then go past the tar gate and gather everything. What would be more interesting would be if you replaced the black gate with a red gate linked to a 2x1 pressure plate with both its squares under the mud, so there would be a choice between lighting the fuse or killing one mud baby to open the gate.

*In Twice North, there's a yellow gate on the edge of the room. Stylistic concerns and my personal preferences mean I'd prefer it if the door were moved to just beyond the entrance of 2N1E, so the player could enter that room and see it, then figure out whether they want to spend the key there just yet or not.

*In 2N1E, the Soulless enemy should be called or colored something else, again because of its conflict with the standard Soulless enemy. The fuse is easily long enough to blow up the Soulless, then get the three goodies in range of the bomb and get out of the blast radius. The skeleton key is not in the bomb's blast radius and cannot be blown up. This room is completely trivial as it stands.

*In 1N2E, even though you know about doorwalking, it's possible to get the stash in the SE corner of the room by spending only 20 greckles, by opening the first and last gates and walking diagonally. You're not on a budget; you can use as many walls as you want to make your point.

*In 2N2E, I used the skeleton key to open the blue door rather than the blue key, since it was a lot easier to retrieve.

*In 2N3E, the Pirate (which, again, should have its name or color changed) needs to have far more ATK to be an effective boss. It's easy to arrive at him with more than 15 DEF, and even if not he barely makes enough hits to do more than a pathetic amount of damage, if you have more than 20 ATK. You should make this boss harder.

Overall, this hold is pretty easy, but still interesting.

EDIT:

To change darkness levels, select your hold in the Build Holds screen, then click the Weather button. Change the darkness level, then click "Apply to entire Level" to make the entire level lighter.

You can also change the room style, which can add some variety from level to level.

Also, you may want to remove all versions of this hold from your posts in the thread, and keep editing the first post in this thread to contain your hold. That way your hold will always be in the first post of the thread, so we know where to find it, and there won't be multiple outdated versions of the hold available for download.

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Click here to view the secret text


[Last edited by Chaco at 09-01-2009 06:38 PM]
09-01-2009 at 06:35 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (0)  
Chaco wrote:
*In 1N2E, even though you know about doorwalking, it's possible to get the stash in the SE corner of the room by spending only 20 greckles, by opening the first and last gates and walking diagonally.
It has to be said, I assumed this was deliberate, since it's not easy to get that much more than 20 greckles at this point (especially if you spent 10 in Level 1).

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09-01-2009 at 06:38 PM
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Chaco
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Nuntar wrote:
Chaco wrote:
*In 1N2E, even though you know about doorwalking, it's possible to get the stash in the SE corner of the room by spending only 20 greckles, by opening the first and last gates and walking diagonally.
It has to be said, I assumed this was deliberate, since it's not easy to get that much more than 20 greckles at this point (especially if you spent 10 in Level 1).

I would agree with that statement. This is at least partially as a result of the fact that all of the custom monsters in the hold so far don't give out any greckle or REP awards, like regular monsters do.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 09-01-2009 06:53 PM]
09-01-2009 at 06:53 PM
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Thelas
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (+1)  
a. You missed something in 1N1W, think for a bit and look very carefully.
Click here to view the secret text

b. Do I have to make characters to change names or is there an easier way?
c. Scroll changed in last version. Stairs up added in this version.
d. I was trying to force a fight with all three babies... babies don't count for tar gates? Trapdoors under mud and trapdoor gate added.
e. Bottom-right stash is being changed, I'm not sure what yet. Also, note its opportunity cost.
f. Yellow door moved, fuse shortened to make room.
g. Skeleton key now ungettable barring crazyness of killing that thing with 9001 DEF early.
h. As mentioned, the boss was supposed to have 30 ATK, 15 DEF, not its current stats.
New version not attached yet, I'm working on 1N2E for a while, I'll add it later.
EDIT: Done working, new version is here.
EDIT 2: Attachment removed, new version coming soon.
EDIT 3: One more problem fixed, newest version so far here.
EDIT 4: Just so you guys know, I decided that the tar babies should only make you fight one and that's what the version has. No new version attached, because this is just a changelog for the version posted with EDIT 3.

[Last edited by Thelas at 09-01-2009 10:00 PM]
09-01-2009 at 06:55 PM
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minimike98
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (-2)  
Im sorry but i just dont understand the game thers hardly any buildings no obsticals thers just wall,doors and monsters thers no puzzles like trapdoor puzzles thers no orbs just walls and monsters sorry but i give you game

123456789
V
09-01-2009 at 10:00 PM
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Thelas
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (0)  
A. Since when are pressure plates and orbs that different? There are plenty of pressure plates so far.
B. This is only level 2, I'm trying to start VERY simple. I don't like big messes of confusion, though I understand what you're saying.
C. Obstacles? Since when are walls not obstacles? Do you mean damaging obstacles? Say hi to the hot tile, please.
D. There is an orb in L1-2N1W.
E. There are some trapdoors in the hold.
F. http://www.jspell.com/public-spell-checker.html
Since you seem to need a spell checker.
G. What? You give my game 123456789V?
H. For everyone: new version attached. If you haven't seen the bonus room on Level Two, nothing that you've seen is different, I just made that one a bit more possible.

Thelas

[Last edited by Thelas at 09-02-2009 12:00 AM]
09-01-2009 at 10:13 PM
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Thelas
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Just in case someone missed it, my post responding to minimike has the new hold attached.
09-02-2009 at 11:28 PM
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Thelas
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I'm giving this one more bump, then I'm giving up...

Thelas
09-15-2009 at 11:04 PM
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Tim
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (0)  
2 questions that you need to ask for yourself:

1) Do you like to make (unfinished) level sets because you can get other peoples attention? Or

2) Do you just make these things because it's fun to create fun level sets?


Click here to view the secret text


Edit: The levels are pretty okay for now, but it would be nice if it is possible to go back to the first level. ;)

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[Last edited by Tim at 09-16-2009 12:31 AM]
09-16-2009 at 12:22 AM
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Thelas
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (0)  
A. Yeah, of course it's because I like making them, but I cannot optimize for the life of me. That's why I'm asking for help.
B. Stairs fixed to go back instead of end hold, here's the new version.

Thelas
09-16-2009 at 01:20 AM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Help me build my (as of yet untitled) RPG Hold (+1)  
Thing is, having already played through the hold twice, I don't really want to do so again for just a small update to the second level. I was waiting until there was a third level....

Don't worry too much about what the optimal end-of-Level 2 stats are. Design Level 3 so that you can complete it -- in the end, your hold has to be fun for you to play -- and we'll let you know if it looks badly balanced from our point of view.

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09-16-2009 at 12:19 PM
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