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Nuntar
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icon Nobard's Hold 2 (+1)  
As I explained in this topic, I've been considering starting Nobard's Hold again from scratch, and as the poll results were overwhelmingly in favour of that option I've decided to go ahead and get started.

Here's the first level. It's mostly unchanged, because there wasn't a lot wrong with the old first level, but you may notice a few differences:
Click here to view the secret text


Hope you enjoy. I'll continue posting updates as often as I can.

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 05-20-2009 04:12 PM]
05-12-2009 at 08:08 PM
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Dex Stewart
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icon Re: Nobard's Hold 2 (0)  
You've definitely regained my interest by making it easier. I liked the original hold a lot (even though I just couldn't progress past a certain point) and I'm bound to like this one too.

I don't really have anything to say about this level... I eagerly await more :).
05-12-2009 at 08:46 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Nobard's Hold 2 (0)  
This is an interesting remake of the first level. I admit that due to poor planning and greckle management I didn't do as good a job as I could; well, that's what reruns are for.

Here's my score checkpoint for defeating Stanley.

Stanley Defeated!

HP: 172
ATK: 29
DEF: 13
Keys: 2/0/0

GR: 47
REP: 127

Score = 208

===

I think the first level is decently balanced, with some interesting goals to go after (the wooden sword, obviously, also the 21 and 25 ATK thresholds). Although the increased cost of the greckle gates caused me to approach the level differently (including one poorly-thought-out bit where I had to kill a roach uselessly in order to raise money), I liked the small changes made from the previous bit, and I think the cutscenes worked well.

So, overall, I think you're off to a decent start. The second level start of the original had some problems, in my opinion, mostly based around having too limited a set of choices at the beginning. I think having a few more simple "resource exchanges" such as health potions behind doors or keys behind greckle gates would have helped a bit in terms of resource juggling. I'm sure you'll do a good job with it this time, and I'll play it when it arrives. :)

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[Last edited by Chaco at 05-13-2009 12:37 AM]
05-13-2009 at 12:33 AM
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Blondbeard
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icon Re: Nobard's Hold 2 (0)  
Nice to see you work on Nobard's Hold again! It feels as if you can exit the first level with better stats than before now. This is my stats after picking up most of the level-items: 125/31/16/7/0/0.
05-13-2009 at 07:09 AM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Nobard's Hold 2 (0)  
Hmm, that's a bit too much. As before, Level 2 will begin with a Spider, so the key ATK threshold is 26, and I want that to be available without getting everything, but not too easily.

I've attached a new version to the first post. Several rewards and monsters have been changed, and now two of the non-secret rooms also use the roach queen's egg-laying as a choice element. For anyone finding the new version a challenge, the "two green keys" secret room has been modified so you can use the green keys separately, and there's one more large potion behind a yellow door. Also, the DEF gem in 8S1W is much more costly. One DEF for 60 HP was a no-brainer when you were getting 60 HP back from having the DEF on the first level alone.

My stats on ascending to Level 2:
Click here to view the secret text


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[Last edited by Nuntar at 05-13-2009 01:50 PM]
05-13-2009 at 12:56 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Nobard's Hold 2 (0)  
Updated with Level 2.

New on this level:
Click here to view the secret text


EDIT: updated with changes to the dialogue before you fight Grey Jade.

EDIT: after testing, decided the level was too hard and made further changes.

EDIT: removed potion in thief's cell, made him give player HP instead, since potion was blocking his exit from the room if the player activated the cut scene before taking it.

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 05-13-2009 06:27 PM]
05-13-2009 at 03:27 PM
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Someone Else
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icon Re: Nobard's Hold 2 (0)  
There's a little bug in the cutscene in Second Floor: 4S 1E. The spider just appears on the wall and then walks in and then out. It looks a little weird. Great story!

I think that I'm going to have to be a little better in my planning if I am to continue.

[Last edited by Someone Else at 05-13-2009 08:27 PM]
05-13-2009 at 08:25 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Nobard's Hold 2 (0)  
Someone Else wrote:
There's a little bug in the cutscene in Second Floor: 4S 1E. The spider just appears on the wall and then walks in and then out.
Yes, that's what's meant to happen. I couldn't make a "wall with gap in it" graphic for the cutscene without violating copyright.

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05-13-2009 at 08:29 PM
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Someone Else
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icon Re: Nobard's Hold 2 (0)  
It's just that the spider appears so suddenly that it doesn't look good.
05-13-2009 at 08:32 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Nobard's Hold 2 (0)  
Nuntar wrote:
Someone Else wrote:
There's a little bug in the cutscene in Second Floor: 4S 1E. The spider just appears on the wall and then walks in and then out.
Yes, that's what's meant to happen. I couldn't make a "wall with gap in it" graphic for the cutscene without violating copyright.

You could ask mrimer's permission to modify the wall graphics to add cracks or gaps the way you want, and then include the graphics as a custom wall.

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05-13-2009 at 08:41 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Nobard's Hold 2 (0)  
I could if people really think it's that big a problem, but I didn't want to wait for permission to come through before releasing the level as I wanted people to be able to get on with testing the stat-optimisation aspect.

Maybe I'll just have the spider appear and disappear from the square next to the wall so that it looks like it's going under the wall....

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05-13-2009 at 08:48 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Nobard's Hold 2 (0)  
Alright, I've played the new version of the hold.

Level 1 has just had some small tweaks, but I think it's tougher now than when it started. I don't think it should be made any harder than it is currently.

Level 2 also looks very familiar, but it has some other rooms that don't, which seem pretty fairly well balanced. I had an interesting time trying to figure out which ATK thresholds to get to first, and which way to spend what keys and money. (There's no way to know that freeing the prisoner behind the 'Neather will give you 500 health, though - and aren't tokens of appreciation usually monetary? Oh well.)

The Grey Jade fight was tough with the statistics I had, but I could have spent more greckles or keys getting more health. But that's not a problem anyway since in the original hold there was the option of fighting him immediately or going onto Level 3, either of which are good options.

===

There's one thing I'd like to point out soon, before I forget and never mention again, since I never got around to pointing this out in the original:

In First Floor 8S2E, there are two yellow doors that the player will run smack into when they approach from the North. I'd recommend moving both of them into appropriate places in 7S2E, mostly so that they know about them beforehand and don't end up spending keys or health in 7S2E or 7S1E and then suddenly realise they needed one more yellow key before they did all that. It would just be a convenience to the player in terms of information, is all.

===

Here's my score checkpoints.

Stanley Defeated!

HP: 64
ATK: 23
DEF: 14
Keys: 0/0/0

GR: 33
REP: 93

Score = 158

===

Grey Jade Defeated!

HP: 60
ATK: 40
DEF: 30
Keys: 4/0/0

GR: 105
REP: 485

Score = 331

===

Overall this hold's structure appears very similar to the old Nobard's Hold, but the difficulty is rebalanced (to the better, I think) and the story is improved. So far I'm liking it. Thumbs up!

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05-13-2009 at 10:06 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Nobard's Hold 2 (0)  
New update. I've corrected the problem with the spider cut scene, and corrected the problem Chaco noted with the doors. I've also introduced a new custom monster -- the Redshirt -- and used him to replace the existing monsters in several places to make things a bit better balanced (I hope).

I've spent too much time on DROD in the last three days ;) so I don't think I'll start work on Level 3 immediately.

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05-14-2009 at 01:23 AM
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Someone Else
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These are my stats on beating Stanley:
Hp: 102
Atk: 24
Def: 15
Keys: 0/0/0
Score = 167
05-14-2009 at 09:20 PM
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Blondbeard
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Done for now :) The greckles constraint constantly makes me leave behind items I want to grab, which I guess is the idea. Just be aware of that the player will get lots of stuff once he passes a greckles threashold.
05-15-2009 at 11:55 AM
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Nuntar
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Okay, I promise this is the last update before I start on Level 3. I've rebalanced some of the monsters and doors, overall aiming to make the level slightly easier but at the same time to reduce the lead the better optimisers are getting. One thing I've done to achieve this is put orbs in some prison cells that open other cells -- so for instance instead of a spider guarding ATK and a green door blocking ATK, there'll be a green door blocking ATK and a spider guarding an orb that opens that door, so an optimiser can't get two lots of ATK.

I've also taken Blondbeard's above post into account and reduced the amount of stuff that's behind greckle gates. (Though I'm not too worried about this "greckles threshold" -- the greckle gates are only going to get more expensive on the higher-multiplier levels, and by then the player is likely to be wanting to save up for merchants to get the really good stuff.)

I've tested the level from the stats Someone Else posted (above) and can almost beat it -- I'm about 12 HP short of what I need to kill the final Mud Baby. However, Someone Else didn't include his current money amount, so I don't know if he would have been able to get more HP from opening a greckle gate. I assumed he has 24 GR (from killing Stanley) and, since his HP is less than 200, I assumed he hasn't taken the potion and gems you get immediately after Stanley, so I added those to my starting stats.

Though I must point out, (1) Chaco beat a harder version of the level starting from stats worse than Someone Else's, so it's definitely possible, and (2) it's not too hard to finish Level 1 with better stats than those (I finished with three yellow keys, which makes a huge difference).

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05-17-2009 at 12:43 AM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Nobard's Hold 2 (0)  
My stats before Grey Jade fight (and before opening green door in 5N):
Click here to view the secret text


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05-17-2009 at 01:22 AM
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Lamkin
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icon Re: Nobard's Hold 2 (0)  
Stanley defeated.
HP: 270
ATK: 27
DEF: 13
Keys: 0/0/0*
Score = 180

* Just a quick note to say that I'd gone back to a few of the other rooms on the first floor after defeating Stanley , so I'd actually started the second floor with one yellow and one green key.

Grey Jade defeated.
HP: 416
ATK: 38
DEF: 18
Keys: 1/0/0
Score = 264



[Last edited by Lamkin at 05-17-2009 06:28 AM]
05-17-2009 at 03:46 AM
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Someone Else
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icon Re: Nobard's Hold 2 (0)  
All your assumptions about my stats are correct. I went back and opened a greckle door to get a yellow key and 50hp before continuing, I'm not sure whether this is a good idea but it looked good to me.
05-17-2009 at 06:06 AM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Nobard's Hold 2 (0)  
Updated with Level 3.

Rebalancing this level took longer than I anticipated, so I haven't yet had time to put in all the cutscenes I would like, but I wanted to get this out so you guys could test what I've done with the optimisation choices.

As before, my strategy has been to correct any things I considered obvious flaws in the original layout, and then after I get your feedback I'll adjust the level further if I think it's too easy or too hard.

What's changed:
Click here to view the secret text


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05-19-2009 at 11:04 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Nobard's Hold 2 (0)  
Alright, I replayed the second level. It's definitely been rebalanced so that HP isn't as much of an issue but greckles are harder to get ahold of.

===

Third Floor: Quince South Twice East

Currently there's no reward for releasing the advisor here. Since it's an issue of timing (retrieving the first blue key you see, in Second Floor South Wing), I think a score checkpoint would be appropriate, even if you say you've removed the small health.

===

Projected Damage for Grey Jade: 324

Grey Jade Defeated!

HP: 190
ATK: 43
DEF: 31
Keys: 1/0/1

GR: 77
REP: 577

Score = 352

===

I played through the third level, and it's still pretty tough, despite the monster rebalancing. 60 greckles per gate meant I had to be much more liberal with my keys, though.

I didn't end up beating the boss of this stage, mostly because in the original hold I put off beating that boss until I had more equipment and statistics from the area past Grey Jade, since twice-brained monsters take off a lot of health. I tried beating this boss with 1077 HP, 49 ATK and 34 DEF, but the total projected damage was still over 1200 HP. This is not necessarily a problem, depending on how the rest of the hold plays out.

===

Overall, I think the Redshirt and Black Widow monsters have appropriate HP costs and greckle rewards, and fit in reasonably well with the rest of the monsters. The 'Neathers don't necessarily need an appearance change, particularly since the player should be aware that something's funky with all the greckle amounts in this castle, and that they learn reasonably quickly that they only give 15 greckles.

===

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05-20-2009 at 03:00 AM
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Blondbeard
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A reward IS neaded for Third Floor 5S2E. Even a score checkpoint won't do the trick. I would just reach it once, and then restore back to before I got the blue key, since it might not be optimal to release the prisoner ;)

I have to say the greckles balance so far is very good. I constantly find myself killing enemies for greckles, which is a tough descicion to make. And for the first time ever I have started to wonder if greckles might not be equally important as keys. That depends on how the rest of the hold turns out :)

The double brains are more dificult now. I completed them with 8 HP to spare. I think this is were the game will be difficult if you haven't found any secrets. Of course it's hard to tell, since the alternate route isn't available yet, and I didn't really play all that optimally. One problem though: You don't have to kill them in order to leave the room, and you can thus save this scorepoint for as long as you like.

Overall: Good job! There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the balance so far.

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 05-20-2009 09:23 AM]
05-20-2009 at 09:04 AM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Nobard's Hold 2 (0)  
Updated. Not much has changed, since feedback is mostly positive, and if Blondbeard can beat the Master Brains before entering 2:2S but only with 8 HP left, then I really have managed to get the difficulty just right.

I restored the ATK gem to 6S2E (I think on the old version this was one of the ATK gems I replaced with DEF to prevent the player getting 68 ATK too early) since I want the player to be able to enter Level 3, get some ATK to make Grey Jade easier and return to Level 2 as one of the possible choices -- there will be quite a few different ways to go about this section :)

You now get a "challenge" reward for beating the Brains before Grey Jade: your REP up to that point is doubled. I'm going to add more challenges like this later on, and yes, the amount of REP you have will make a difference. There will be a similar REP doubling if you beat Daniel before the Brains, but some challenges will multiply REP by a smaller amount, or will add a fixed amount instead of multiplying.

There's no reward yet for releasing the prisoner, but since it sets a veriable to record that you've done it, it may well affect something later on in the hold :)

Finally, I eliminated the problem Blondbeard highlighted -- you now have to kill the Brains before exiting the room -- and added another cut scene.

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 05-20-2009 04:38 PM]
05-20-2009 at 04:38 PM
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Dex Stewart
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icon Re: Nobard's Hold 2 (0)  
It should be noted that in 1st floor 8S 1E it is, in fact, possible to get all the treasure...
Though it costs more HP and it's a nice enough puzzle that I think you should let it in :).
05-20-2009 at 04:59 PM
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Nuntar
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I thought it was pretty obvious that that was deliberate. :P (If you compare the room to 7S2W you see that in one case the roach queen is completely closed off and in the other it isn't.)

I don't know how you guys are managing to get so far in the latest version :( I can get up to 49 ATK to lower the damage from the Brains boss to around 1200, but I can't get more than about 400 HP. I suppose I could have done better if I'd got the DEF in 2:8S as early as possible... which is the point of that room, really, too see if you feel brave enough to leave the DEF until you're ready to get the keys as well.

Any suggestions?

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05-20-2009 at 05:22 PM
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Nuntar
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OK, here are my final stats after playing the parts built so far:
Click here to view the secret text

I can reach the Brains with about 700 HP if I don't detour to get the green key I need to reach Grey Jade.

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05-20-2009 at 05:41 PM
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Blondbeard
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I could probably make a walk-throughish post next time, if that would help?
05-20-2009 at 09:32 PM
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Nuntar
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Not really, because you've already proved that you can solve it, and if I can solve it but following your walkthrough that doesn't prove anything new :P I just wondered whether you felt anything needed to be done to make it easier to beat the Master Brains earlier (because then doing so becomes an option for more players, meaning it becomes a choice whether to aim for it or not).

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05-20-2009 at 09:37 PM
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Lamkin
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Aargh! I (and perhaps others?) would be interested to know what Blondbeard's stats were just prior to his ascending the stairs to the third floor. ;)
05-21-2009 at 11:48 PM
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icon Re: Nobard's Hold 2 (+1)  
Eaisily granted! I just take a look at my third floor autosave: 556/42/23/58 Greckles/0/1/0.
05-22-2009 at 05:32 AM
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