Jacob
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File: Missing Pieces.hold (9.2 KB)
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Here's a compilation of rooms from this competition:

http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=28528

Latest version on 28th March 17:40

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[Last edited by Jacob at 03-28-2009 05:42 PM]

Chaco
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Ah! Very good.

My only comment is that Level 4: The Entrance could use some more checkpoints, and then the "important" checkpoint could either be highlighted with a ceiling light, put on a mosaic tile, or both. This is because it is a hard room that must be restarted a lot.

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mxvladi
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I suggest making demo of level 4 entrance watchable from main menu.

Jacob
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New version up

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mxvladi
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Stairs of level 3 go to level 5.

Stairs of level 4 finish the hold.

I believe it's not what's intended...

Jacob
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You are correct.

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mxvladi
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Level 4 entrance - there's a backtracking problem here(cut gel babies after opening the green door, leave the room and reenter).

and I think that level 5: 1W is a lot easier than level 4: 1W or level 3: 1W.

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[Last edited by mxvladi at 03-24-2009 09:01 AM]

Jacob
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Good points. Have made some changes.

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Jacob
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Just for fun, I have added a semi-tongue-in-cheek, over-the-top, extra room where the same rules apply.

Though the way of deducing the answer should be slightly different. I can think of about 5 solutions.

Once people have a look and comment, I'll probably submit.

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CuriousShyRabbit
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I enjoyed this hold. It's too bad I was at home sleeping for the entire short duration of the contest.

From a player's perspective I would have liked more checkpoints, especially in rooms where a tarstuff mother was on the one important checkpoint, but that's not a big deal. I understand they would obscure your contest idea.

Regarding the secret over the top room, I assume you understand that you can't have impossible secret rooms in a published hold. The solution I found

Jacob
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I shall definitely add in some more checkpoints before submitting, thanks.

Edit:

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[Last edited by Jacob at 03-26-2009 10:11 PM]

Jacob
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Update.

Some more checkpoints and...


Incidentally, we can hold a similar competition again if anyone's game.

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lopsidation
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In the fifth variant, it's impossible to get to the scroll in 1S1W. Maybe this is intended (Because there are no other possible solutions?).

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TFMurphy
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Speaking of scrolls, you've forgotten to mention some of the other solutions to Entrance that I posted in the Contest thread. (Slightly disappointed that none of those nor the Mimic Potion made it in, but they were pretty difficult solutions)

As for the secret room:

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[Last edited by TFMurphy at 03-27-2009 02:09 AM]

Jacob
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TFMurphy wrote:
Speaking of scrolls, you've forgotten to mention some of the other solutions to Entrance that I posted in the Contest thread. (Slightly disappointed that none of those nor the Mimic Potion made it in, but they were pretty difficult solutions)

As for the secret room:

Click here to view the secret text

×Preplaced Clone works, but that goes against the extra rules you mentioned in the contest. But Stalwart *does* work, and that's allowed. EDIT: Oh, and so do Wraithwings.

I'd not ignored those - just thought they were too hard.
Though I think I'll add them as secret extras. I figured it would be bad form to stick rooms in a hold that I couldn't complete myself - though if you could supply demos once they're added, that would be great.



Edit: OK, see what I've done wrong. Think they're correctable.

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[Last edited by Jacob at 03-27-2009 06:08 PM]

mxvladi
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Jacob wrote:

TFMurphy wrote:
Speaking of scrolls, you've forgotten to mention some of the other solutions to Entrance that I posted in the Contest thread. (Slightly disappointed that none of those nor the Mimic Potion made it in, but they were pretty difficult solutions)

I'd not ignored those - just thought they were too hard.

Mimic poiton solution in the entrance actually isn't too hard... I actually found it even easier than Slayer solution. So, I personally think mimic solution could be put in...

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[Last edited by mxvladi at 03-27-2009 06:08 PM]

Jacob
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OK, new version, with secret level and changes to secret room.

Demos for secret level greatly appreciated.

Secret room -

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mxvladi
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Is it my browser problem, or new version didn't get attached?

Jacob
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Done. Probably my fault.

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mxvladi
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Jacob wrote:
Demos for secret level greatly appreciated.

Well, mimic room is pretty easy(demo attached).

Will try other rooms now...

EDIT: Demo removed since mimic room was changed with Slayer room

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[Last edited by mxvladi at 03-28-2009 05:58 PM]

TFMurphy
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3S in Entrance Variations has a problem: completing it sends you back into 3S, and thus you are stuck.

Attached are demos for 1S, 2S and 3S, since mxvladi has already supplied one for the first room. (I used a 'pure' juggling solution for 1S, but it is possible to get Halph to help a little as a barrier.) Demo for 4S will have to wait until I can get to it in normal gameplay.

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[Last edited by TFMurphy at 03-28-2009 05:01 PM : Removed attachment now that it's been downloaded]

Jacob
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Sorry, could not get 2S or 3S to work.

Updated the hold file so that 3S goes to 4S.

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mxvladi
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I suggest mark 4S in "Entrance Variations" as secret room, so player will have to play through all the secret level to master the hold. Right now, the player can simply walk into lvl5: 1E and master the hold without conquering rooms in "Entrance Variations".

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[Last edited by mxvladi at 03-28-2009 04:24 PM]

TFMurphy
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File: MP Entrance Variations Demos.zip (5.6 KB)
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License: Public Domain

Since you've moved the Slayer to Entrance Variations, you may wish to update the scroll in Fifth Variant:1E.

Surprised you couldn't get the demos for 2S/3S to work. I've attached a new ZIP file containing 2S, 3S and 4S demos. If that still doesn't work, then I'm not sure what the problem is. I'll note that I'm using v3.2.1.84, but I don't recall any movement changes with either Roach Queens or Guards there. Where exactly is the problem occurring?

EDIT: Um... small update. I've been trying for quite a while, but finally did it: Aumtlich [N] in Entrance is possible. (Any Aumtlich not facing S, SW or SE is possible, but N is as good a start as any) It's difficult to say how the difficulty varies between all these juggling variants -- I'd say Roach Queen and Aumtlich are near the top, but Stalwart isn't too bad, despite a rather nasty start. Halph and Guard would be the easiest. This is just my own view of them though -- others may have their own views of difficulty in this respect.

EDIT 2: After some discussion, there's some feeling that Guard may be much easier than Halph, since Halph gives almost too large a solution space, given how you can control exactly when the hordes are unleashed and where you'd be there. Guard, on the other hand, forces you to move towards certain directions quickly, so it's easier figuring out how to start. Stalwart is likely on the same level (or perhaps even easier than Guard, since the juggling after is much much easier). So it might be better to have one of those two first before the Halph room.

EDIT 3: It also occurs to me that another possibility would be to simply allow these optional rooms to be done in any order rather than a fixed one, though a suggested difficulty in any hub room might be useful. This does bring up a problem of what difficulty to actually suggest, but it does allow for players to try alternate rooms until they find one they can complete: the juggling rooms all become much easier once you've figured out the techniques required to complete just one of them.

===

If you do decide to add Aumtlich, an additional request: please add checkpoints at (21,14), (18,17) and (15,14): positioning the Aumtlich is a fairly important part of completing it. (These co-ordinates don't spoil the solution, but are both reasonably helpful whilst still being symmetrical)

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[Last edited by TFMurphy at 03-29-2009 08:32 AM]

Jacob
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Sorry, have only just seen these edits.
Agree it would probably be more user-friendly to have the entrance variants accessible in any order from a hub.
Would also be nice to include aumtlich too for completeness (though I doubt I'd be able to complete that either).

Can I still make any changes? Even now CSR's voted "YES"?

EDIT: Ok, have made a new version with a hub room, scripted characters to prevent you returning to a completed room, aumtlich variant and extra checkpoints.
Sorry, my goblin juggling skills are too poor for me to record demos for the rooms. Please refer to TFMurphy's demos.
I also will have to take him at his word that aumtlich is possible.
Let me know if you are happy for me to upload this.

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[Last edited by Jacob at 03-29-2009 02:54 PM]

CuriousShyRabbit
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Jacob wrote:
Sorry, my goblin juggling skills are too poor for me to record demos for the rooms.

This should be a giant red flag for you! While you had an absolutely terrific contest idea (I hope you do it again someday!), and I know all the contestants had loads of fun generating the list of game elements that would work on each X... if you can't play these rooms, what makes you think they would be any fun for others to play?

Just for the record, it took me more than 9 hours of try again, and try again, and try again, and try again, and try again, and try again, and try again... to get the first version you submitted approved as promptly as possible. The secret level is not fun for Rabbits.

TFMurphy
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Just a reminder: with the hub room approach, you should have an easily accessible checkpoint(s) in the room itself so that players can save after completing one of the rooms. Otherwise, it can become a little tricky if you visit one room and then decide to back out of it without losing progress.

Either a central checkpoint or one close to each of the staircases should work.

Jacob
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OK, sorry.

While I don't enjoy goblin juggling I wanted to include these rooms for completion's sake, because some other people enjoy such challenges and to show the solutions TFMurphy came up with (he said he was disappointed, and I felt bad!).

Sorry you took 9 hours on it! Why couldn't you have looked at TFMurphy's demos?

It is secret, there's no master wall, and now each room is independent of the others, so there's no reason to play them all if you don't want to. They're there as "proof of concept".

Will shortly upload a new version with the stairs going to the hub, and with more checkpoints.

(Incidentally, there are tons of manipulation and efficiency rooms out there that I can't complete, and that others love, was hard for me to tell if these rooms fell into that category. Clearly not.)

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[Last edited by Jacob at 03-30-2009 07:57 PM]

Syntax
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I would agree with Jacob's point of view. Architecture is very different from in-game skill/patience.

As long as each room can be shown to be solvable (with a demo), I think it's fair to use them. Hold difficulty otherwise would be restricted by the architect's own playing abilities.

noma
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I quite enjoyed working through them. I'm even looking forward to optimizing some of them. It's just that last Aumtlich one that's driving me nuts... but in a good way.