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Connoraustin
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icon The new creation (0)  
Hi! Hope you like my new creation.

I'm making a new hold now, so expect to see a new one soon! :D

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01-01-2009 at 10:43 AM
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mxvladi
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Uh...

Is it possible? I can't kill serpents in Imperial Grounds: entrance.
01-01-2009 at 01:41 PM
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Gordius
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Nuntar, the secret wall gets you to two yellow keys. mxvladi, I suspect you need to find the blue key before getting to the serpents. I've gotten as far as the Facility Floor and everything seems to be working as planned. My only complaint so far is the amount of vacant space to traverse. You apologize for it after the long road, so you clearly know it's annoying. Is something eventually going to fill that space? Because it really seems like it could be trimmed back.
01-01-2009 at 02:52 PM
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Tim
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I love the idea that you can actually sell keys for money, even if you don't have any :)

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01-01-2009 at 03:10 PM
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Gordius
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A couple of things through the end of Facility Floor 2.

First, it would be nice if there were some indication that getting the flippers isn't an option just because you can kill the rock golem. Or make it an easy-way-out vs. hard-way-out where the easy way is one way (meaning you won't be able to get back in) and the hard way is what you have back there.

Second, the Ghost Soldier boss of FF2 is much too easy. Unless I missed a trick, you can't get to him without killing a rock golem to get the blue key, and if you can kill a rock golem, he's going to hit you, at most, twice, and probably only once.

ETA: In FF4:2N, if you step north upon entering with the sword facing north, the Goblin King NPC can't follow his script to leave and the cut scene will hang.

[Last edited by Gordius at 01-01-2009 03:48 PM]
01-01-2009 at 03:23 PM
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deftriver
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Bug in Facility Floor 1: 3E. When you sell all of your keys it goes sets the total to 99 and stays there so you can keep selling I guess forever.
01-01-2009 at 05:40 PM
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Connoraustin
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Notice that the pirate that steals your keys lets you go back to sell keys, so you don't have to restore.

Sorry about the FF2 Ghost soldier BTW. I didn't mean to make it too easy, I just didn't want to make it too hard.

I will fix it.

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01-01-2009 at 06:11 PM
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deftriver
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quote:
Nuntar wrote:
It actually keeps subtracting one key, but negative numbers are displayed as "99". You can see this at the start of the next level when your keys are stolen -- losing a negative number of keys is shown as gaining a positive number, but you finish with zero.

Incidentally, it would be nice to warn the player that they can't take keys onto the next level, as you'll obviously want to restore so you can get money instead. It would also be nice if you could sell all your keys at once, since you have around ten at that stage, and doing it one by one is tedious.


But you can still make mad money by the 99 thing.
01-01-2009 at 06:21 PM
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Connoraustin
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Latest edition, with all current noted bugs fixed

BTW the serpents at the start of the Grounds are not supposed to be killed, they are just a conveiniant way to stop you going back

Just a clever image, thats all.

Not with all the bonuses in this hold could you kill the serpents, as far as I know.

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01-01-2009 at 07:02 PM
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Tim
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You didn't upload a newer version, did you?

And the game became really boring when I realised it's possible to keep the Really Big Sword at the end of floor 5.

EDIT: 1S4E on that level had some strange gels disappearing on entrance, is probably a bug as well.

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[Last edited by Tim at 01-01-2009 08:39 PM]
01-01-2009 at 08:34 PM
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Connoraustin
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Sorry, fixed the Really big sword thing.

Continue with your playthrough and see what you think, then load this new one that fixed it. go ahead.

Click here to view the secret text


The gel is fake, that's fine, I just made it look like the 'vision'

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[Last edited by Connoraustin at 01-01-2009 08:43 PM]
01-01-2009 at 08:41 PM
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Gordius
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DROD says this is the exact same file and refuses to import it. So, that may be why the goblin king cutscene hang I mentioned still exists.

I managed to kill the Fegundeagle without using the bomb, in case that's intended to be impossible. Given how gamebreaking using it in FF4:2N is, it ought to be.

Also, is it intended that once you hit the orb in FF4:1N, it's impossible to go backward (to the previous floors, in particular)? I still don't have the equipment necessary to escape after getting the flippers. I don't think I missed it on previous floors. Except that FF5:1E makes me think that I must have missed it somewhere.

Anyway, once I move forward with 1N, I won't be able to go back up, that I can see. A force arrow south, instead of a black wall, on the south side of the passage west of the swordsman might be a good way to fix this. Or even just nothing behind the swordsman. Right now I'm using the green key and avoiding killing him entirely.

Even having saved the hand bomb, I can't see how to get through the gel in FF4:1E. Is the force arrow supposed to be facing the other way?

Similarly, will there eventually be a room at FF4:4N? Having saved the bomb, I can create an opening to there from 4N1W, and the absence of wall under that stretch of gel makes it an appealing place to consider using the bomb. Not as appealing as FF4:2N, but still.

Goblin King score without using the hand bomb in 2N:
HP: 4926
ATK: 128
DEF: 80
Keys: 8/1/0
GR: 2550
Goblin-Biter, Wooden Shield, Hand Bomb

Using this setup, I was barely able to get through FF5:2E, and ended up hung up on the Rattlesnake in 2S1E. Even with the life I'd still have if I'd used the bomb on the fegundeagle, I can't see how I'd get past the snake.

FF5:1N, on the other hand, is a total waste. I'm warned off, they take all my keys, and all I get is two monsters I can avoid and a power gem? I assume that's still what's waiting to be expanded, given that I can't find an exit for FF5, even with the contents of FF4:2N.

Edited: Bah, that's what happens when I spend an hour typing up a post, I get beaten out.

Edited 2: This new one still insists it's the same file as the first one.

[Last edited by Gordius at 01-01-2009 08:55 PM]
01-01-2009 at 08:52 PM
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Connoraustin
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icon Re: The new creation (0)  
To reply to your last thing, blue keys = exit

Click here to view the secret text


Fixed the goblin king cutscene, fixed the fegundeagle, Fixed the 'no go back' thing on FF4 1N

And, no, there wont be a room at 4N

Don't worry. try to finish it with that hint at the top.

GOOD LUCK :thumbsup

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[Last edited by Connoraustin at 01-01-2009 09:04 PM]
01-01-2009 at 09:02 PM
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Gordius
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Heh. Didn't notice the tunnel behind the mud mother.

Unless I'm missing something (like whatever's beyond all those doors around the goblin king stairs; even with the two skeleton keys I can't quite get through there), you need every single power gem in the game so far (except the FF4:1E ones that still seem inaccessible) to kill the gel mother on the bridge at the end of that level. Which is the only reason anyone would ever trade all their keys for the one power gem in 1N. At which point, your scroll is just a lie, players should go there as early as possible so they can keep all the keys that come afterward. But they also have to get the expensive one at FF5:5E, the hidden one at FF4:1W, and they have to be taunted by the fact that you can use the grappling hook to get to the other side, but none of the pressure plates open the door. And even then, he takes ~7250 for each eye, even though you could sneak around one of them. There's no margin for error. You get everything or you lose.

Some explanation of what the chest in FF6:2N1E does would be nice. It looked like it took two-thirds of my greckles and tripled my life, but that's just a guess.

Edited: If you're going to put briars in FF7:E, you should put something behind them.

Edited 2: Killed the Gel Mage (again, every available (minus flippers, using the old version; and minus doors behind FF4 stairs, but unless there's a green key back there, I think I'd have been unable to progress if I had used it there instead of on FF6) power gem required), neither the Empowered Goblin King or I can hurt the other. Time to restart with the new version so I can finally get the flippers and see what that opens up and maybe do the FF4 stairs properly this time, although without the skeleton keys, I don't know whether that will be possible.

[Last edited by Gordius at 01-02-2009 01:38 AM]
01-02-2009 at 01:12 AM
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Tim
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quote:
Gordius wrote:
Unless I'm missing something (like whatever's beyond all those doors around the goblin king stairs; even with the two skeleton keys I can't quite get through there), you need every single power gem in the game so far (except the FF4:1E ones that still seem inaccessible) to kill the gel mother on the bridge at the end of that level.
You need most of the power gem, but you don't need all of them. All the power gems in FF4:1E are takable, but you need a trick.
quote:
But they also have to get the expensive one at FF5:5E,
You can choose the hot tiles instead. I did.
quote:
the hidden one at FF4:1W, and they have to be taunted by the fact that you can use the grappling hook to get to the other side, but none of the pressure plates open the door.
Which room are you talking about?
quote:
And even then, he takes ~7250 for each eye, even though you could sneak around one of them. There's no margin for error. You get everything or you lose.
I've got about 3500 per hit, which means it should be a lot easier.

quote:
Edited 2: [...]neither the Empowered Goblin King or I can hurt the other.
I don't think they are meant to be killed now.
quote:
Time to restart with the new version so I can finally get the flippers and see what that opens up and maybe do the FF4 stairs properly this time, although without the skeleton keys, I don't know whether that will be possible.
The flippers in this version enable you to get the really big sword in FF6, as well as other "unintended" stuff in other floors. I don't really think this is intended.

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01-02-2009 at 01:59 AM
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Gordius
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quote:
Nuntar wrote:
It's really harsh on the player that the force arrow traps you in 4:2N if you go back a second time (perhaps you couldn't remember whether there were some things you didn't get).

quote:
Unless I'm missing something (like whatever's beyond all those doors around the goblin king stairs; even with the two skeleton keys I can't quite get through there)

You don't have two yellow keys? I had twenty-five at that point.


Heh. For some reason I only remember that trick when it's greckle doors. I was within one green key of opening all the doors. Maybe that'll help me out on the next floor, where I'm getting pummeled trying to navigate all the rattlesnakes.

Edited: Boo. Complete waste of time back there.

[Last edited by Gordius at 01-02-2009 02:35 AM]
01-02-2009 at 02:31 AM
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Tim
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Nuntar wrote:
Well, yes. When your ATK is only just above an enemy's DEF, every point of ATK makes a huge difference. My ATK is 362, so if I could get the gems in 4:1E the damage would be quartered. What on earth is the trick?
Click here to view the secret text


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01-02-2009 at 02:45 AM
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Connoraustin
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I have made the E king weaker and given you some bonuses on FF4, though I'm sure you could tell that the merchant is there to stop you losing keys to the pirate (Again)

New update again

Sorry

If your stuck load this one, It is easier at the end.

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[Last edited by Connoraustin at 01-02-2009 11:12 AM]
01-02-2009 at 09:22 AM
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Gordius
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quote:
Connoraustin wrote:
I have made the E king weaker and given you some bonuses on FF4, though I'm sure you could tell that the merchant is there to stop you losing keys to the pirate (Again)


Sure, but it's cheaper (resulting in a smaller overall cost in keys, especially if you're going to go back for the flippers eventually anyway) to go back to the earlier merchant and sell them there. If this guy were offering a better price or buying green keys, I might come in here.

Except that even then, it's better to just not pick up any keys you can go back for later, so that you show up at each of the thieves without any keys in hand. This is annoying, but not actually that difficult once you've played through a couple times. You have a number of places where you're forced to pick up keys to get to stuff you want, so it may not be possible to do it perfectly, but there are a lot you can leave behind until you're ready for them.

And, also, what Nuntar said, although that may still be coming later.
01-02-2009 at 11:25 PM
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Gordius
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Key Quest 2009:

Yeah, if the only thing I'm interested in is starting FF2 with as many keys as possible, I can leave them behind until I talk to the pirates and have nothing stolen, then go back upstairs to clean up, and come back down with:

HP: 3201
ATK: 50
DEF: 36
GR: 305
Keys: 12/0/0/0

This required slightly suboptimal HP management (leaving aside that I probably haven't optimized that well anyway), because I couldn't get the gems behind the two keys in 1N1E and still not lose any to the pirates. If I was willing to leave one behind that I wouldn't be able to retrieve until I got the flippers, I'd probably have ~100 more HP, and since I don't expect to need all these keys before the next key loss (or ever, really), I'll probably try it that way next.

Doing it this way, though, does allow me to discover that I can get negative greckles by buying the shield without enough, so you need some sort of line in your script to cover that. I'm pretty sure I could have gotten enough greckles to cover it without wasting any HP by doing things in a different order and going back up once I'm at 68ATK to clean up loose monsters in FF1, but might have had to sell a key. Horrors.

Anyway, I'll play around with this some more tomorrow and see whether I can do the same at the next pirate location. Let's see, that'll be Enter FF5 with 2/0/0/0 (one for the gate in entrance and one for the gate before the pirates in 1E. I think I have to leave behind (or waste in places like FF2:1W) a couple green keys.
01-03-2009 at 12:23 AM
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TFMurphy
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quote:
Nuntar wrote:
Are you sure you made the king weaker? I just downloaded the latest version, and his DEF is still 600. Altering the other stats makes no difference; if his DEF is higher than the highest ATK you can possibly get, you cannot even hurt him. My ATK is 452 and I'm sure the only boosts I missed in the entire hold were the seep ones on Level 4. (Yes, I did get the adder's cache.)
The King's DEF hasn't changed, no. But there's another hidden change nearby that does make the hold able to be completed. (EDIT: Did another check, and looks like you do have all the available power gems besides those you mention. But yes, the hold's possible, but you may need to start this level again...)

quote:
Nuntar wrote:
What difference does it make whether you sell your keys or lose them for nothing? There's nothing in the hold, nothing, that you can spend that amount of greckles on. (For reference, I have 35,931 greckles before fighting the Empowered Goblin King.)
There's two things that sap your greckles by a large amount. But one is percentage based, so it can't really be counted as a reasonable expenditure. And the other is after the Empowered Goblin King... with little point in it, since there are no further challenges, and no further Score Checkpoints. (I was able to go Serpent smiting after it though, and racked up another 80k greckles....)

===

It's definitely possible to reach both Pirate Tolls with no keys and not having to sell any. (You also don't need to sell a key to get the Wooden Shield, but you'll have to fight a monster or two to get a few extra greckles first.) It does mean having to leave certain bonus areas until later (like the hidden room in FF3), but it's generally worth it. (Green Keys get used up easily by the way, so you don't have to waste them or avoid picking them up... well, I say that, but there is a trick to avoid using two Green Keys earlier, so probably worth doing that instead)

The problem with these tolls though, is that (1) it punishes the player for picking up lots of keys early and (2) it means there are *FAR* too many keys around. I had almost 70 Yellow Keys from cleaning up just before killing the Empowered Goblin King.

Anyways, as for general comments about the hold itself... it's an interesting hold, but it still needs a fair bit of work and polish.

* It'd be nice to have some sort of consistency in level naming (especially with regards to capital letters), and you've got a mistake in FF1's level name.

* FF3:1N1W: I don't really understand what the secret wall north of the Goblin is for - you can't break it without being hit by the Goblin, and there's no benefit to skirting around the Goblin, unless you're *really* desperate for health potions and can one-hit Rock Golems.

* FF4:3N1E: As has already been stated, there's no point in this room - key merchants aren't all that great if you do the sensible thing and don't pick up all that many keys, and this guy buys keys for exactly the same amount as the one in FF1, but is *much* more costly to get to.

* FF5:1S4E: Absolutely no point in this room. You need to be swimming in health in order to deal with the Rock Giants/Hot Tiles, and you will never have four Blue Keys at once. And you get a Hook really easily on the next level anyways.

* FF5:4S: No real point to this room either. Charging through that many Pirates is foolhardy, and you won't be able to kill them easily until much later, and the reward is inconsequential. And you still won't have two Blue Keys to waste to go the other way.

* FF5:4S5E: You never need to enter this room for anything, especially given you can grapple hook across 4S4E to 3S4E without seeing this room.

* FF5:1N1E: You never need to open the Yellow Door here, since you can just backtrack.

* FF6:2N3E: Despite there being a Briar Hacker here that costs 3 Yellow Keys, none of the areas with briar in give access to anything interesting if you cut them.

* FF7: There's a few scripting errors here, like the technician teleporting while you're heading for the RBS. And there's no real indiciation of what you're meant to do here - sure, you're directed to pick up the RBS and Oremite Shield, but you never get at the source of the problem, and you're never told "you're done, you can leave now". It's exploration only that takes you back to FF6 and the Empowered Goblin King, but it doesn't really feel finished.

* And as I noted previously, there's no Score Checkpoints at all after FF4, and absolutely *no* point in the stat bonuses available after the Empowered Goblin King. It's just stats for the sake of it, which feels messy.

===

It's not a bad hold overall, and I did have fun playing with it. But it doesn't feel finished yet.



EDIT: For the record, I just went through once more trying out another route, again with a focus on optimizing keys, making sure none were sold or taken by the Pirates. Not sure how much better it can be optimized in this version, but I got to the Empowered Goblin King with 55339 HP, 750 ATK, 451 DEF, 26251 GR, 73/4/0 Keys for a total of 7296 Score. I then finished the hold with 60739 HP, 952 ATK, 554 DEF, 100832 GR, 73/4/1 Keys for a total score of 8780. Of course, it takes pretty heavy optimisation to accumulate this much, as well as finding all the hidden rooms, but this is the amount of leeway we're dealing with.

[Last edited by TFMurphy at 01-03-2009 06:10 AM]
01-03-2009 at 02:11 AM
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Gordius
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quote:
* FF6:2N3E: Despite there being a Briar Hacker here that costs 3 Yellow Keys, none of the areas with briar in give access to anything interesting if you cut them.


Particularly given that the flippers appear to need a Briar Hacker to be allowed out into the many other places where there is water to walk on. That's an awfully long trek for a player to make back only to find out it was a complete waste.

Also, the Empowered Goblin King is a negligible end boss. Either you find the trick or you don't, and beyond that, there's no benefit to having found more power gems, because he'll likely cost nothing to kill if it's possible to kill him at all. An attack higher than your max defense and a defense of around 450 would make him costly to kill if you do it standard, cheap if you use the trick, and somewhere in-between if you wander back to pick up the Goblin Biter where you left it (I was very upset when my doubled ATK with the Biter was 590, just short of what I needed). This assumes the King has the standard goblin weakness; I could have checked by heading to him with a weaker shield, but didn't.

Overall, I didn't do as well as TFMurphy in optimizing, lost one key to the pirates on FF5 because of all the keys you're forced to pick up on FF4 (although I later figured out where I could have used it) and left behind several thinking I'd be able to get them later with the flippers. Plus I opened a lot of yellow doors I didn't really need to (the 7 covering 1 green key that I didn't need on FF4). And I still ended up with about 40 at the end of the hold. And more than enough greckles to buy from the final merchant.
01-03-2009 at 06:11 AM
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Connoraustin
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I have a big finish planned for the end of the game, Instead of an easy exit, you will be challenged beyond anything before.

Welcome to oblivion

Sorry :thumbsup I just couldn't resist

I have a last fight to lower your points.

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01-03-2009 at 02:01 PM
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Tim
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It feels like a finished hold now. The only thing it needs it some polish.

And Spell checking (for example, the first scorepoint).




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01-04-2009 at 06:24 PM
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Kwakstur
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I still think a lot of free-space trimming is in order. TBH, all this empty space I feel the need to explore is keeping me from enjoying the hold. I don't know how much the balance of the hold later on would be offset by placing some more enemies and items in the earlier levels, but something needs to be done. Maybe have some stuff happening in some of the empty space?

If not, delete big sections of empty rooms and block off their entryways with piles of rocks or some other obstacle.

A similar idea to that is to surround the playable space with a ring of obstacles. Jason does this in RPG 3.0 (a hold that, despite the name, is for regular DROD). Go peek at the level maps for it on the DROD Hints and Solutions Search. He surrounds the playable areas with obstacles like Rocks and Pillars... and somehow, it's aesthetically pleasing (though you can't tell from the H&S board since you need CNet to view room images from some holds).
But once again, remember to delete rooms that you completely block off.

Also, you really need to fix those spelling errors. Several have already been pointed out.

Regardless, I am surprised at some of your techniques. Even though I think that at times it's unclear what I have to do or that it's tedious to get around, your hold uses stuff that many architects at this stage wouldn't touch. You seem to know what you're doing as an architect, and also I think you have a clear vision on what you want this hold to feel like.

And you sure know some interesting ways to block off passages.

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[Last edited by Kwakstur at 01-05-2009 06:39 AM]
01-05-2009 at 05:00 AM
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Tim
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Some stuff to polish on:

Before I forget, try not to put (invisible) characters on top of tarstuff (in Floor 6).

And I'd suggest you to recheck all the scripts in Level 7, especially the ones at 2E. I get stuck behind the doors half the times I got there.

The rattler on floor 0.

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01-05-2009 at 02:01 PM
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Blondbeard
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Done! Having played through it I would sugest removing the key thiefs entierly. I never had any lack of keys, nor any lack of greckles. The place was swarming with keys, after all! And perhaps the abundancy of health potions is a bit unnecesarry. My ending stats almost seems redicoulous (46103/898/562/38/0/3), but I suspect you can do even better, since I didn't find all the secrets.

The best level to me was the rattle snake level.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 01-08-2009 11:18 AM]
01-08-2009 at 11:17 AM
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Connoraustin
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I will upload my hold now.

Unless you have anything to tell me to add to it.

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01-17-2009 at 05:55 PM
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Tim
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Before you "upload", have you read the stickies on this board already?

Or are you just uploading a new version here?

[Last edited by Tim at 01-17-2009 06:01 PM]
01-17-2009 at 06:00 PM
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Connoraustin
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Sorry, I'm new here. What are stickies

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01-18-2009 at 10:30 AM
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