silver
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in TCB Volcano, the there is a lava texture, but that's for "pit", not water. there is no water substitute in volcano that I could find. the "pitside" images contain bricks, so you might be thinking of those when you say "brick pits".

in fact, even after extracting the base media from tcb and looking at all the files, I couldn't find water in there, either.

I think water is generated from a base color which apparently isn't under your control, and reflections from the 'StyleName Skies=' images.

of course, one can also custom pit images, or even simulate pits with inaccessible room ares and light settings and/or custom walls. these could be used to make a "water substitute", but probably not a dynamic one with reflections.


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[Last edited by silver at 10-09-2008 10:03 AM]

Banjooie
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It...it has to have a tile.

Because it has /squiggly lines on it/.
SURELY. SURELY. Those squiggly lines are editable?

silver
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TileConstants.h lists water as .tim number 67 (just one tile, though). try editing that and see what happens.


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Jutt
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Yes, water has an editable tile. I don't know what exactly the number 67 has to do with water, but its tim code is actually 182.

Now for the additional water effects. If you're modifying from the Volcano template, the wall reflection can be found in the 16x3 block of wall tiles, in the top right corner (idem for broken and secret walls). They are simply thet front side of the walls mirrored, with transparency colour added in the lower half of the tile.
The water sides are not available in that template, but are numbered 1358-1373. When placed in order in a 4x4 square they form the same pattern as in the basic GeneralTiles template.

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silver
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my bad, I mistook the room code for a water square for the .tim code the watertop image




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[Last edited by silver at 10-10-2008 03:11 PM]

Banjooie
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I actually figured out which tiles were the water/wall tiles! I did this through science. By which I mean I have made rooms with every possible wall combination for testing that wall tiles fit together properly.

It is actually due to the unique rahrlahgrfail I have introduced in /my/ editing that I decided it was necessary to fix water.

And by 'when put 4x4 they fit the same way' you mean..like, the walls? I don't know what 4x4 means here, treat me like an idiot.

silver
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File: shoreline.png (1001 bytes)
Downloaded 791 times.
License: Public Domain

he means this image:


has this .tim file:
1358-1361
1362-1365
1366-1369
1370-1373

in that image, the water would be the dark parts, the land the light parts. I believe. but actually you want the dark parts to be transparency, I think? anyway, it's also about controlling the shape of the coastline.

maybe I have the dark/light usage backwards, but then wouldn't 182 be redundant with 1368?



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[Last edited by silver at 10-10-2008 12:35 PM]

Insane
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File: Shoreline.png (1.8 KB)
Downloaded 55 times.
License: Public Domain

The light parts are transparent (they go on land), the dark parts are the actual shoreline.
Water is not on that pic at all.
1368 is actually redundant with 1358, as 1538 is used in favor of 1368 for land tiles attached to water on all four sides.

The actual water is 182.
If you use the following .tim, you can replace the tile at 1368 with the actual water itself, black with shoreline, and gray with transparent. In fact I'll go resize it and do that now.



EDIT: Here's the actual template I used, along with the above .tim, in DROD RPG. Blue is water, brown is shoreline.

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[Last edited by Insane at 10-10-2008 03:11 PM]

Jutt
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Eh, wait, from my experience black does get replaced with water. Transparency colour is indeed replaced with land, so any other colours than these two can be used for the shoreline.

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silver
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/me is now confused. both of you make sense.

this is one of those times where it would be nice for a voice from the mountain, like, say, mrimer, to just tell us what is what


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[Last edited by silver at 10-10-2008 05:52 PM]

Insane
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I actually tested it.
Take my tim, color the black red or something if you want, the shoreline (wavy parts Banjooie described) appears red now.

EDIT: Oh wait, you meant every other color appears normally but black gets replaced? /me is testing now

EDIT 2: Wow, now that's interesting.
So apparently black *does* get replaced by water texture.
Okay so basically, draw your shoreline, then color the parts where water is supposed to go in black.

Myth confirmed!

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[Last edited by Insane at 10-10-2008 07:59 PM]

mrimer
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Insane wrote:
Okay so basically, draw your shoreline, then color the parts where water is supposed to go in black.

Myth confirmed!

Yes, that's how the shorelines tiles work. Good sleuthing!

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halyavin
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I wonder why you don't use transparency instead of key-colors?

silver
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the feature isn't inherently about being transparent, it's about making a square that describes the shape of the border between 2 zones - so, sure, he could have chosen "the transparency color" as one of the two colors, but he still needed a "second transparency color", one of the two key colors is replaced by water, one by land. I'm probably not being super clear here, but what I'm trying to say is that technically, by using 2 colors, he could use this to define "smooth borders" between water and any of the several textures of land available.

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Banjooie
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If he had used actual transparency, I would have been forced to murder his parents before they were /even born/.

That is a PAIN IN THE NECK when you are modding, halyavin.

I mean, modding in non-making-cheat-programs-for-DROD ways.

(In other news, I have come to the conclusion that as crazy as it sounds it'd be kinda cool if you could have two kinds of wall in a room. Not different, just..aesthetically different.

Sillyman
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But... you can... use image wall, you can get it by rotating image floor.

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Banjooie
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....

Which is great, if I want exactly the same kind of wall setup in every single room, or if I want to import several dozen .pngs into the game to support it?

Sillyman
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But that is literally two different kinds of wall. Just make a one-tile image and there you go... not too much more limited than building it into a style would be.

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Banjooie
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So, yeah, re: What I'm doing.

I am, in fact, actually working on tiles, it's just that ohgod, the wall tiles are hard to match up.

There are an awful lot of wall tiles.

That is all.

Sillyman
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... Yes, yes there are... let me count them... soft center wall, hard center wall, NW wall, flat N wall, pointy N wall, NE wall, flat E wall, pointy E wall, SE wall, flat S wall, pointy S wall, SW wall, flat W wall, pointy W wall, solitary wall, broken wall of all of the above except soft center wall, secret wall of all of the above except soft center wall and broken walls... it is delicious wall, you must eat it.

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[Last edited by Sillyman at 10-24-2008 09:18 AM]

Banjooie
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Actually, the really fun part is trying to make walls that /turn into/ other walls well.

This is more difficult than you can imagine, because oh my /god/ there are so many ways walls can change.

trick
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It helps if you break the tiles down into smaller subsections right away and then just start copy/pasting like mad. You'll pretty much have to do that anyway to prevent pixels dancing around when walls are cut. Eg do straight sections first, copy and add corners, copy two corners to make a pointy end, fix it up and copy to a T-section, etc. Make sure the things you copy are good since if you edit them later you'll have to propagate the edits down to everything you copied it to before.

There's 48 different tiles for the regular walls btw. 144 with crumbly and secret ones.

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[Last edited by trick at 10-25-2008 12:09 AM]

Banjooie
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I've been doing that. Not really the issue, I assure you my copying and pasting skills are superb.

The issue is more--The issue is that when you have breakable walls, for instance, every kind of tile has to be able to change into every other kind of wall tile. This severely limits what you can do with roofing and the like.

The Volcano style, for instance, gets around this by the fact that every single wall tile is completely identical except for where the shading and dark bits are.

For a more complicated, indepth-tile, this gets more difficult.
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2050/walltilesvj4.png

I have no issue showing you guys this because this is daaamned old and has had a lot of changes compared to what I'm doing right now, but it illustrates my problem.

These look absolutely beautiful when they're solid, but, say, turn one of the end pieces into a middle piece or vice versa and suddenly the whole system breaks down.

This is irritating as all get out.

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[Last edited by Banjooie at 10-25-2008 10:25 AM]

Banjooie
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mrimer I just want you to know

that thing where when you break crumbly tiles, and surrounding tiles turn to end tiles?

I hate it

I hate it so much

Sillyman
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Banjooie wrote:
I hate it

I hate it so much

Love you too obligatory friendly forum troll.

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Briareos
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Banjooie wrote:
that thing where when you break crumbly tiles, and surrounding tiles turn to end tiles?

I hate it

I hate it so much

That's probably caused by the game only storing that the tile is a wall, but not which part of it - i.e. the kind of tile to display is probably decided at drawing time by looking at the surrounding tiles...

(Disclaimer: the above is just a semi-educated guess at what's happening...)

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[Last edited by Briareos at 10-31-2008 11:05 AM]

Banjooie
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Oh, I'm sure there's a completely valid reason why.

It's just that it means walls have to be.../startlingly/ similar pieces. No fancy endpieces, for instance.

mrimer
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Banjooie wrote:
mrimer I just want you to know

that thing where when you break crumbly tiles, and surrounding tiles turn to end tiles?

I hate it

I hate it so much

Thanks for letting me know. It was Erik's idea to add the dynamic tile visualization based on context in 2.0. (Bit of trivia: In fact, it's the last piece of code Erik contributed to DROD.) For regular walls, I think it looks great in the general case. For crumblies...yeah, it's weird and I don't think we thought it out all the way.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 11-01-2008 04:31 PM]

Banjooie
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It can be gotten around. It's just that it /severely/ limits the types of styles you can make.

I mean, I'd hardly expect you guys to make yet another set of tiles for Nearby Tiles Were Crushed, but I'm really struggling to find a way to add detail that doesn't make the walls magic.

What this actually limits, stylewise, is pretty huge to be honest.

This means end tiles can't be different from regular tiles in a lot of ways: You can't put, say, gargoyles on end-tile corners, or else breakable ones will make them vanish and reappear constantly.

You can't make the edges of your wall tiles a different color, as you've seen in my work; Otherwise, well, uh, it looks like you're redecorating really, really fast.

You can't put anything into the middle of a wall tile that isn't in the middle of every other walltile.

Basically, you are extremely limited because every single walltile must be interchangable almost unnoticably from /every other walltile/.

this makes Banj sad.


Edit: I guess we can't, like, add flags to the .dmf files?

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[Last edited by Banjooie at 11-01-2008 08:20 PM]

Jutt
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Personally I don't have any problems with the walls being changed dynamically, nor do I think it should be changed in any way. From both a players perspective and from a style development point of view, I'm actually pretty happy with the current situation.

When I'm playing a room and cutting broken walls I'm never annoyed by the changes in the adjacent walls. Actually I think it's pretty neat that the surrounding walls immediately adapt to the new situation.

Unlike Banjooie I'm not really bothered by the fact you cannot add widely varying decorations to walls. They are after all a very basic element in Drod, so it makes sense to give them all a similar, consistent look. A greater diversity in walls may easily be too confusing or distracting.

I certainly wouldn't recommend making the system even more complex. Currently, when making a style I only have to wory about the normal walls connecting to eachother correctly (which can already be pretty tricky). Then to make the broken and secret walls I simply blend some cracks into the wall images. This way all types of wall will be automatically compatible with eachother. Trying to implement more flexibility will probably make the process of style creation only more complicated, while the benefits are minimal.

If we want to ensure that the walls are displayed flawlessly at any given room state, I think the current system is the safest way to go.


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Holds: An Architects Audition, Artful Architecture, Salamander, Elusive Exhibitions, Leftover Levels, Six Times Six
Collaborative: Way Forward, Advanced Concepts 2
Styles/Mods: Basalt, Sandstone, Garden, Clock using game elements