DiMono
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Inspired, I've taken my old Guide to Good Posting from the diabloii.net forums and edited it to make it drod.net-centered. A link to it is here. Please read it, and make comments in this thread. After I've received many comments, suggestions, etc, I'll put the final polish on it and call it finished, and turn it over to Schik and Matt to do with as they please.

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eytanz
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I'd add an exception to the "don't dig posts" rule -

If you need help on a room, and there is already an existing thread for it, but your individual problem hasn't been answered in there, ask your question in the old thread instead of opening a new one. This applies only in the "hints" board, and only if you need help, not in you think you can offer it.

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ErikH2000
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It's well-written and the presented rules seem reasonable enough... but jeebus, it's tremendously long! I would favor a much shorter version that assumes a certain level of common sense. The tone should be friendly, and speak in a way that sounds like you already trust the person reading wants to be a happy member of the forum. In a way, you set the forum up for worse abuse, because by overspecifying The Law, some little joker is going to take that as an invitation to do exactly those things which you said not to. It's like being the too-stiff policeman chasing after the Marx Brothers. It kind of seems like he deserves to be made a fool for being too uptight.

Not saying, DiMono, that you should jump up and do this--I appreciate already the effort you've made--but I think the rules would be more effective if the spirit, not the letter, of "the law" were described. Should cut it down to a page or so. And it should sound like one person is giving an informal explanation directly to one other person--the newcomer who we would like to stick around on the forum and have a good time.

-Erik

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The_Red_Hawk
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I don't think the idea of using live examples of real posts/names/etc. from this forum is very good, unless you already obtained their consent. If you did, ignore this post.

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trick
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I propose the following rewrite:

Be nice yo, and please don't make meaningless posts.



But seriously, anything that requires a TOC is too long. People will just be discouraged and skip past the thing. Also, it should be made friendlier and probably more entertaining to read (this is, after all, the forum for a game full of humor).

[Edited by trick on 02-08-2004 at 01:47 PM GMT: Adding seriousness.]

Mattcrampy
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Schik and I talked about this, and we most likely won't use any of it in that form, but will instead fold it into the FAQ. Sure, pull it out occasionally, but we don't really need policemen. We're small enough that an e-mail can sort most issues, and that's far more preferable to a set of rules.

Matt

[Edited by Mattcrampy on 02-08-2004 at 03:04 PM GMT]

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ErikH2000
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Mattcrampy wrote:
Schik and I talked about this, and we most likely won't use any of it in that form, but will instead fold it into the FAQ.

I woke up last night and screamed out, "We already have the forum FAQ! I must remember to mention it tomorrow, or Matt will think I'm suggesting it be replaced."

Sure, pull it out occasionally, but we don't really need policemen. We're small enough that an e-mail can sort most issues, and that's far more preferable to a set of rules.

Agreed. And I'm butting out of this one. You guys got it handled.

-Erik

____________________________
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dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

eytanz
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Mattcrampy wrote:
Schik and I talked about this, and we most likely won't use any of it in that form, but will instead fold it into the FAQ. Sure, pull it out occasionally, but we don't really need policemen. We're small enough that an e-mail can sort most issues, and that's far more preferable to a set of rules.

Matt

[Edited by Mattcrampy on 02-08-2004 at 03:04 PM GMT]

I hope you're right. Though for the future of DROD, I hope that any policy that relies on us remaining small will eventually have to be replaced.

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Schik
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eytanz wrote:
I hope you're right. Though for the future of DROD, I hope that any policy that relies on us remaining small will eventually have to be replaced.

I think that the "problem" right now is very small, and pretty localized to one specific board. I don't have any problem with taking an item or two from this document and adding it to a "How can I be a good contributor to this forum?" question in the forum FAQ.

I'd like to stay away from making this forum seem like a Nazi regime. We already have too many self-appointed forum cops running around, flaming away at over-exuberant newbies. This just makes a bigger mess for everyone else reading. I'm far more irritated by seeing 5 people say "Why did you revive this thread? It's X months old! Move On!!!" than I am by seeing a new forum user who's excited and overwhelmed by all the juicy forum goodness he or she has missed.

I'd say that right now, no, we don't need forum cops. If we do in the future, I think the way to go would be to have a small group of Caravel-appointed ones.

The tough part is balancing - we don't want to irritate our old regulars so much that they leave, however we certainly don't want to discourage new people from joining in because they see that newbies aren't accepted into the group very well.

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eytanz
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Oh absolutely; a big reason why I advocated making a formal set of rules is because I assumed they'll include a formal way to handle it when people break the rules - to whit, only official moderators should react to rule breakages.

Still, my last post was meant to be taken at face value - I really do hope you (both Matts) are right, and that some clarifications to the FAQ are all that it would take at this stage. And I really do hope, for different reasons, that the community will grow to a stage in which that won't be practical anymore.

The main problem, I think, at the moment is that the forum moderators are quiet - old-timers such as myself see one or two people who seem to behave in a way that annoys everyone else, but we don't get the impression that something is being done about it. Which makes it very tempting to do something ourselves.

And the problem, by the way, isn't ressurecting old posts - that's just part of the annoying behavior. The problem is that the posters who are ressurecting the old posts seem not to be doing it because they are excited and have something to say - they just seem to be doing it totally randomly. And they seem to totally ignore polite requests to not do so anymore. Which leads to impolite requests.

We are small, but we are not so small anymore that everything can be dealt with on the honor basis. I don't think we're anywhere near an "oppressive regime" requirement - but we are at the moment in need of a "kind uncle" kind of moderator, who occasionally comes in and says "kids, stop fighting. You, stop shouting at that other poster, and you, don't respond to posts unless you have something to say. Now lets all go and have fun". Because the problem is, it's not confined to just one forum - we've had tension in the general forum, the hints forum, and the feature request forum over the past week alone. And if it's not dealt with, it will get worse, or people will start leaving.

And I think that a forum with active (though not harsh) moderation is going to be more welcoming to newbies rather than less. The problem (even now) isn't really about newbies at all - the problem is that particular individuals are irritating other individuals. I think everyone in the board is very welcoming of any newbie that comes and posts real hint requests, or real questions, or real feature suggestions, or real movie quotes. I don't think that anyone is trying to scare those people away.

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ErikH2000
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eytanz wrote:
The main problem, I think, at the moment is that the forum moderators are quiet - old-timers such as myself see one or two people who seem to behave in a way that annoys everyone else, but we don't get the impression that something is being done about it. Which makes it very tempting to do something ourselves.

Okay, you have some good points.

I'm suggesting we start doing things a different way: Let's have Matt, Schik, and I be the only people who are supposed to respond to users who are causing problems. If the load is too heavy, I leave it to Matt and Schik to deputize more moderators as needed, but I don't want the regulars climbing over each other to criticize someone's misbehavior. If someone thinks the official moderators are missing something, e-mail uh... well, I'll set up an alias that goes to all three of us--moderators@caravelgames.com. How does this sound?

Note that often silence or a private message is the best way to handle a situation. Particularly, this ruckus about resurrecting old posts. If the person is just ignorant that they are replying to an old post, no big deal, right? We can let that pass, and they might figure out why they're getting ignored on their own. On the other hand, if someone is doing it intentionally, what is their aim? To get attention, of course. So it's not effective to publicly reprimand them.

-Erik


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The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

eytanz
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You are right that dealing with things quietly is often best; and indeed, I definitely think that should be the first tactic chosen for any problem. But for recurring problems, or any problem that people are overtly discussing and getting upset at (i.e. writing posts on the forum about rather than emailing you), you should have some sort of public response - not, mind you, a public reprimand to whoever is the offender, but a message saying "we are aware of the problem and are dealing with it". That way, everyone is happy.

Oh and, I agree with your policy completely.

[Edited by eytanz on 02-08-2004 at 10:51 PM GMT]

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Schik
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ErikH2000 wrote:
I'm suggesting we start doing things a different way: Let's have Matt, Schik, and I be the only people who are supposed to respond to users who are causing problems.

If this ever does turn into a task that takes an appreciable amount of time, I would probably elect to turn in my badge, or at least select someone else to do the dirty work for me, as you suggested.

My interest is in the technical stuff, forum and game-wise. I enjoy adding on to the forum, but I don't think that I'd have much fun being a forum cop. Sure, exercising my powers could be fun for a short while, but in that "Mwuahahaha" sort of way that would get old quickly.

So let's get together sometime to discuss rules and how to deal with infractions.


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The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi