DiMono
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Personally, angelus, I'm not putting anything up in here until the drod server proper is back up. I wouldn't take it in any way at all that nobody's commented in a while

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agaricus5
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DiMono wrote:
Personally, angelus

First...

Your spelling is atrocious.

I'm not putting anything up in here until the drod server proper is back up.

Secondly, what do you mean? Do you mean this thread or the forum in general?

I wouldn't take it in any way at all that nobody's commented in a while

DiMono. I totally disagree:

First, there have been no comments about the thread between 11/04/04 and 17/05/04, a delay of about 1 month (Even taking away the downtime, this is still about 2-3 weeks).

Second, this is not the first time this has happened to me in the history of Bavato's Dungeon. I please ask that you do look at the earlier pages of this thread, and this page:

http://www.caravelgames.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=1581&page=1 (I'll change this address when the switch-over happens)

I don't wish to begin an argument, but I really want you to understand this, DiMono, before you begin to sort of semi-mock me about feeling ignored:

Basically, Bavato's Dungeon is a project that has spanned almost 11 months (It was begun on June 15, 2003) and is not even half-finished, making it the longest running hold-building project on this forum, to date. The major reasons for such a long project are over-ambition and lack of testing, both of which have delayed and delayed and yet again delayed me from updating and moving the hold along.

Seriously, DiMono, it's alright for you that you've managed to finish your own hold and get the feedback you want for it, but after you sit on a creation for about 11 months and watch almost everyone else release at least one, while looking at your own and feel dissatisfied with most of it, I'd say it does get quite off-putting and rather stagnating. This is made worse when, looking at the assorted comments of others on the hold, and looking at other people's holds, the quality of this one feels low relative to the amount of time spent on it, and so I just feel it's not giving players enough returns on the time they and I have invested in it.

The purpose of this post was not for sympathy, contrary to the tone of the writing, I admit, but just to make you, and perhaps other people who may share the sentiment, aware about why I am replying to your post in such a way.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 05-18-2004 at 07:46 PM GMT]

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DiMono
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agaricus5 wrote:

DiMono wrote:
Personally, angelus

First...

Your spelling is atrocious. :p

see, this is what happens when replying to you while talking to someone named angelus...

I'm not putting anything up in here until the drod server proper is back up.

Secondly, what do you mean? Do you mean this thread or the forum in general?

I meant the forum in general. I'm pretty sure there are lots of people who hadn't found caravelgames.net or the dexterity forums, and so wouldn't know about this.

I wouldn't take it in any way at all that nobody's commented in a while

DiMono. I totally disagree:

(lots of text removed for the sake of brevity)

I was feeling a similar way when Reubus had hardly any downloads for a good long time. Then I realized that there are all sorts of other finished holds to play as well, and that people are giving time to everything, everywhere.

With everyone doing so much, it has to be expected that everything will take more time to get to, which would explain all the down-time. I wasn't meaning to slight you or put you down in any way, I was merely trying to offer an alternative way to view the thread's lack of recent activity.

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gds
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Don't loose heart agaricus, I'm still playing through your dungeon. However kol has been taking up much of my playtime lately.
Nonetheless I've been testing level 9 every now and then and will move onto 10 soon.
I'll try to post some feedback tomorrow.

agaricus5
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Oh, addition to the update.

I forgot to credit you, bandit1200, for helping me test and correct the maze.

Thanks for your help. I'm very grateful to you.

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gds
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Ok, here is my feedback for level 9. I haven't tried level 10 yet.

1W: I like that room very much. It was fun, not terribly hard and didn't take ages to complete.

1N: This one on the other hand took me ages, 12 minutes 37 according to the demo and that's not counting the numerous deaths. The room itself is not desperatly hard but because of the design of the room, progress is inherently slow. I went through the crumbly at the bottom to move from the east side to west side of the room. I hope that it is what you intended as I don't think I could solve the room (or at least have the patience) otherwise.

2N: Takes a long time to complete as well (12 minutes 41), however the risk of dying is much smaller and there are plenty enough of savepoint. I enjoyed that room.

1E: Oh, how much I wished for a savepoint in the bottom part of this room! In the second alcove from the bottom, in the bottom right would be a good place, or below the green door. Without it, it's inhumane. I don't remember using the orbs when I solved the room. Again it took me 12 minutes to complete it.

2E: Gasp! Tar babies a-gogo. I haven't finished this room yet. I've got 5 more doors to open. However, I've noticed that I forget to toggle one orb when passing by it and I think I've put myself in a position where I can't reach the bottom left orbs. So, I don't think I will ever complete it. I think you should scale down the room a bit or make it a secret, unrequired room somewhere. Completing this room would again take a long time.

1N1E: When I first entered this room, I turned around immediately, it looked too hard. I've finally tried it a bit today and I don't think it's that bad (maybe it's the experience gained from your I-ching entry). It's no cakewalk either. In my opinion, the two tar mothers are too much. It's difficult enough without spawning roaches.

Overall I think you should spread the current rooms on level 9. Put some rooms in between that don't take too long to complete, like the serpent room. As it is, I haven't been able to play more than one room before having had enough.

I'll try level 10 next (and maybe level 5 if I get fed up with it) but it may take me a while before I have done any significant progress.

agaricus5
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gds wrote:
1N: This one on the other hand took me ages, 12 minutes 37 according to the demo and that's not counting the numerous deaths. The room itself is not desperatly hard but because of the design of the room, progress is inherently slow. I went through the crumbly at the bottom to move from the east side to west side of the room. I hope that it is what you intended as I don't think I could solve the room (or at least have the patience) otherwise.

Hmm... Well, unfortunately, that's an unintended solution. This room is a killing efficiency room. You need to dispatch with hordes efficiently and move efficiently to complete it, or roaches pile up on you.

I think I may not change it, but I will consider down-grading the room at some point.

2N: Takes a long time to complete as well (12 minutes 41), however the risk of dying is much smaller and there are plenty enough of savepoint. I enjoyed that room.

Really? I thought the room a bit excessively Tar-focused. Hmm...

1E: Oh, how much I wished for a savepoint in the bottom part of this room! In the second alcove from the bottom, in the bottom right would be a good place, or below the green door. Without it, it's inhumane. I don't remember using the orbs when I solved the room. Again it took me 12 minutes to complete it.

No orbs?

You must have found an unintended solution.

If you've got the demo, I'd be interested in seeing it.

2E: Gasp! Tar babies a-gogo. I haven't finished this room yet. I've got 5 more doors to open. However, I've noticed that I forget to toggle one orb when passing by it and I think I've put myself in a position where I can't reach the bottom left orbs. So, I don't think I will ever complete it. I think you should scale down the room a bit or make it a secret, unrequired room somewhere. Completing this room would again take a long time.

You need to do some route-planning to do this room. Find the safe zones where you can kill two babies per 2 swing moves and plan how to reach each.

1N1E: When I first entered this room, I turned around immediately, it looked too hard. I've finally tried it a bit today and I don't think it's that bad (maybe it's the experience gained from your I-ching entry). It's no cakewalk either. In my opinion, the two tar mothers are too much. It's difficult enough without spawning roaches.

Tar Mothers?

What Tar Mothers?

Overall I think you should spread the current rooms on level 9. Put some rooms in between that don't take too long to complete, like the serpent room. As it is, I haven't been able to play more than one room before having had enough.

Hmm...

Well, it looks like you are an advocate of the averaging out of levels' difficulties. I will seriously consider this when I do the re-shuffling later on, but I can't promise that much evening out will be done. What I'm most likely to do is group rooms in levels by difficulty to create a difficulty gradient. There may be one or two easier rooms interspersed in the levels, but I think my general aim is to get all rooms in a level to be around the same difficulty, just to make the hold balanced in a similar way to what would be expected.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 05-20-2004 at 10:02 PM GMT]

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gds
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agaricus5 wrote:
1N: Hmm... Well, unfortunately, that's an unintended solution. This room is a killing efficiency room. You need to dispatch with hordes efficiently and move efficiently to complete it, or roaches pile up on you.
I think I may not change it, but I will consider down-grading the room at some point.

If you change it don't make it any harder. It took may two days to complete it.

2N: Really? I thought the room a bit excessively Tar-focused. Hmm...

I found it easier than the 3 mothers room on dugan level 8. Maybe it's experience.

1E: No orbs? You must have found an unintended solution. If you've got the demo, I'd be interested in seeing it.

I've looked at my demo and I've used the orbs. I'm sure it can be done without using them if you clear the upper left corner (through the crumbly wall) before clearing the upper right corner. I'll try to make a demo.

2E: You need to do some route-planning to do this room. Find the safe zones where you can kill two babies per 2 swing moves and plan how to reach each.

Yes I know that, as I said there's only 5 doors left to drop. However I can't seem to find a way to reach the bottom left corner safely. What really took away my motivation was that I realised that I've forgotten to toggle an orb very early in the room. That's a few days of playing on that room down the drain.

1N1E: Tar Mothers? What Tar Mothers?

Did I say tar mothers? What was I thinking about. I meant the roach queens.

Well, it looks like you are an advocate of the averaging out of levels' difficulties. I will seriously consider this when I do the re-shuffling later on, but I can't promise that much evening out will be done. What I'm most likely to do is group rooms in levels by difficulty to create a difficulty gradient. There may be one or two easier rooms interspersed in the levels, but I think my general aim is to get all rooms in a level to be around the same difficulty, just to make the hold balanced in a similar way to what would be expected.

I don't think the difficulty is the problem. I think it's the length of time it takes to complete a room. That's a trend throughout your hold. Take for example the roach queen room (1N(, the goblin room (1E) and the tar baby room (2E) on this level. There is A LOT of monsters so you have to be very careful with every move you make. So you're bound to make mistakes, which mean restores, which add to the feeling of lengthiness. If you have too many of these rooms in succession then I think you're going to turn people off. That's why I'm suggesting putting some rooms in between that are not necessarily easier but that are quick to complete.

gds
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 50
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File: BDTE Level 9 The Ruins 1E Victory.demo (2.4 KB)
Downloaded 96 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

Here is the demo for level 9, 1E without using orbs

agaricus5
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gds wrote:

agaricus5 wrote:
1N: Hmm... Well, unfortunately, that's an unintended solution. This room is a killing efficiency room. You need to dispatch with hordes efficiently and move efficiently to complete it, or roaches pile up on you.
I think I may not change it, but I will consider down-grading the room at some point.

If you change it don't make it any harder. It took may two days to complete it.

Hmm... I was intending to remove the crumbly walls at the bottom. It took me several days of crafting to make the effect and solution I intended in this room, and I don't really want to lose this quite yet. Put it on hold for now. When I re-shuffle, I may decide to move it to somewhere more secret/inaccessible.

2N: Really? I thought the room a bit excessively Tar-focused. Hmm...

I found it easier than the 3 mothers room on dugan level 8. Maybe it's experience.

I think it's also personal preference and skill. You seem to be good at dealing with tar and tar based problems, but not so with horde manipulation. 1N would take me about half an hour to do, while 2N might take me two if I wasn't careful.

1E: No orbs? You must have found an unintended solution. If you've got the demo, I'd be interested in seeing it.

I've looked at my demo and I've used the orbs. I'm sure it can be done without using them if you clear the upper left corner (through the crumbly wall) before clearing the upper right corner. I'll try to make a demo.

...Received the demo

Ah. That's something simple I overlooked when I made this room. Right. More roach queens! (In the affected area, of course)

2E: You need to do some route-planning to do this room. Find the safe zones where you can kill two babies per 2 swing moves and plan how to reach each.

Yes I know that, as I said there's only 5 doors left to drop. However I can't seem to find a way to reach the bottom left corner safely. What really took away my motivation was that I realised that I've forgotten to toggle an orb very early in the room. That's a few days of playing on that room down the drain.

Well, there are basically two routes you can take. Either go clockwise around the top first, or anti-clockwise around the bottom, then go clockwise and do the top (I prefer the second, but you can do it both ways).

The important thing to do is be efficient at getting the orbs at the start of the route. Remember that in a safe-zone, you can wait as long as you want to and be inefficient, so if in doubt, wait a bit to see what you can do.



However, I'm sorry to hear that the room has frustrated you so much, but I understand you've done a lot of testing for me, so I don't really mind too much. Test when you want to.

Well, it looks like you are an advocate of the averaging out of levels' difficulties. I will seriously consider this when I do the re-shuffling later on, but I can't promise that much evening out will be done. What I'm most likely to do is group rooms in levels by difficulty to create a difficulty gradient. There may be one or two easier rooms interspersed in the levels, but I think my general aim is to get all rooms in a level to be around the same difficulty, just to make the hold balanced in a similar way to what would be expected.

I don't think the difficulty is the problem. I think it's the length of time it takes to complete a room. That's a trend throughout your hold. Take for example the roach queen room (1N(, the goblin room (1E) and the tar baby room (2E) on this level. There is A LOT of monsters so you have to be very careful with every move you make. So you're bound to make mistakes, which mean restores, which add to the feeling of lengthiness. If you have too many of these rooms in succession then I think you're going to turn people off. That's why I'm suggesting putting some rooms in between that are not necessarily easier but that are quick to complete.

Right. I see what you mean now. Yes, I do understand that this is a problem with the hold - that many rooms take a long time to finish and are often based on a certain theme, which can be tiring, if you are not good at a particular skill, in this case, giant horde management.

Right now, I am aiming for difficulty and making rooms involving the most complicated solutions I can come up with. However, the finished and final product will not actually look like the current hold that you have. I am seriously going to re-order and group the rooms so that they become a bit more coherent, and the hold less crammed. I can see why now you are finding it tiring and long to complete - it's only the effect of me creating all the difficult rooms now before I sort the hold out properly.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 05-24-2004 at 09:50 AM GMT]

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gds
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I made a start on level 10 but I have a problem with the first room. I fail to see how it is possible to clear the two trapdoors just left of the starting position of the mimic in the lower labyrinth.

As I can't find a way to restore to savepoints other than the last in the editor, I haven't been able to solve any other room except 1N2E. In this room, I would have liked a way to save my progress once the mimic had reached the tar, but I don't see how it could be implemented.

[Edited by gds on 05-25-2004 at 04:03 PM GMT]

agaricus5
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gds wrote:
I made a start on level 10 but I have a problem with the first room. I fail to see how it is possible to clear the two trapdoors just left of the starting position of the mimic in the lower labyrinth.

I see. Sorry.

I re-trapdoored the room to remove some empty squares I messed around with and obviously went over this one too. For this, just remove the trapdoor under the left-facing arrow at (6, 15)

As I can't find a way to restore to savepoints other than the last in the editor, I haven't been able to solve any other room except 1N2E. In this room, I would have liked a way to save my progress once the mimic had reached the tar, but I don't see how it could be implemented.

It's not the most elegant thing that could be done, but I think I've got an idea. You can replace the wall at (1, 1) with an orb that opens a door in the Beethro section, behind which is a checkpoint.

If you wish to continue onwards, make a copy of the hold, delete the doors blocking the way in the entrance and continue on. As I mentioned earlier, there's no problem in not having demos for all rooms in the hold because I will wipe this one clean and start in a new hold after the reshuffle.

Again, thanks for the testing help, and apologies for wasting your time with careless mistake bugs like the one you found.

If you're up to a testing challenge, see how few the minimum number of mimics you need for 3E is. I managed to get it down to 15 during testing, but you may be more innovative than I and come up with something requiring less.

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agaricus5
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Well, I think I still need your help, although you've done a great job over the past year helping me test this hold.

I'm going into beta soon, and so will require a number of people to help me finish this hold properly.

At the moment, I'm looking for...

1. Two or three reshuffling helpers to help me organise the hold before I can go into beta.

What I want help on is not testing the hold or its rooms, or even the hold's playability. All I need is for someone other than myself to help me go through the hold and determine the rooms' relative difficulties, minimum length, and other factors, so that I can reorder the hold to help it play better and create a difficulty gradient.

2. One story organiser (Probably DiMono, but I'll accept help from anyone who offers.)

If there are any of you that are good at writing stories or error-checking, then I will need your help as well. Believe it or not, this hold has a proper storyline, written at the start of its creation, although only Erik knows about it as yet. What I will need help on is checking this prologue to the Bavato's Dungeon story, checking facts and details included throughout the hold in its scrolls and descriptions (to be added in beta), and the ending of the story later on.

3. One or two private beta-testers.

Finally, I will also need some helpers to help me test the final and reorganised version of the hold before I can release it as a finished product.

I understand that this may appear quite demanding, since this is more involved than usual testing (I too have a commitment outstanding to help someone else, which I failed to find time for, which I will follow up after this hold), but I don't require too much, you only need to spend as much time as you can generously offer. I also am asking like this because I really do need your help, and will not ask of this again for a very long time (if ever).

If you could spare some time to help, please send me a PM or e-mail, and I'll get back to you.

Thanks, everyone, for all the help you've given me on this hold; I could never have done it without your help, advice and time, and again, like before, I am grateful for it.

A new version, containing a level 11 and some fixes will be released in about a week, to coincide with Bavato's Dungeon's first birthday.



[Edited by agaricus5 on 06-08-2004 at 09:00 PM GMT]

Edit: Now I feel really bad. I think I'm just too demanding.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 06-08-2004 at 09:05 PM GMT]

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eytanz
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I wish I could help, but I'm going to be very busy for the next month and then away for the month after that...

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HSE
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It all looks very good so far... the only things wrong with it are what's already been mentioned. However, I think it's probably just my DROD, but every now and them after I find the warp room (surprisingly easy to find), the game crashes. I love the little 'led' display...
In summary, keep up the good hold, I think it'll be great when it's finished!

agaricus5
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sebhaque wrote:
However, I think it's probably just my DROD, but every now and them after I find the warp room (surprisingly easy to find), the game crashes.

What?

DROD "crashes"?

If DROD actually crashes or shuts down by itself, and you can reproduce the bug, then post a bug report to the Bugs board, and save your .dats - the developers would definitely appreciate it.

In summary, keep up the good hold, I think it'll be great when it's finished!

Thanks.

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Mikko
Level: Master Delver
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I've been playing a bit on different versions of this hold (I even completed level 5 in an early version), but haven't tested it properly as I hate going through the same places several times with minor adjustments. If there is a definite "almost done" version available soon, then I'd gladly give it a proper test drive.

HSE
Level: Master Delver
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I figured out why it crashes - generally when my dad logs in the slowdown is so much that the connections in the PC time out. It's nothing to do with the game - it's my PC timing out.

agaricus5
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Mikko wrote:
I've been playing a bit on different versions of this hold (I even completed level 5 in an early version)...

Wow, and quite scary. I salute you as one other person that I know of who has completed the maze, although it had several unintended solutions in it (which you may have inadvertently found).

...but haven't tested it properly as I hate going through the same places several times with minor adjustments. If there is a definite "almost done" version available soon, then I'd gladly give it a proper test drive.

That's great!

At the moment, I'm organising the hold, so it is easier to play and more logical. After that, I'll add in the storyline and other enhancers left out because I was only focusing on room creation previously. When all is done, I'll send you an e-mail or a PM to tell you that it's finished and that you can beta-test it, should you have time, of course.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 06-14-2004 at 10:03 PM GMT]

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agaricus5
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Update:

I have released Version 6.3 with a completed level 11

To coincide with the first birthday of this project (thus showing my hold-building inefficiency), started on June 15, 2003, the hold has been updated to contain a new level 11, and some fixes for level 10 and previous levels. Since I had data loss and a crash recently, the hold has a new ID, so you may need to delete the old version and import the new one.

You can find the hold, and an almost identical message on the first post of this thread.

It will also be the last update that will be released as an anyone-edit version for testing, since I will be holding a private beta after this. In consequence, the final version will be radically different to this one in terms of layout, rooms and storyline, although the first levels will be basically similar.

The response to requests for help so far has been generally positive or politely declined, which has been very pleasant, so thank you, and I think I have enough helpers to reshuffle the hold, so this is no longer a requirement.

However, I'm still looking for one story consolidator (Probably I'll have to do that now if no-one wants to help), and beta-testers interested in testing the final product, which will be unlikely to be changed, would also be welcome to help.

So...

Enjoy this last testing version. Thanks to all who have helped me get this far with the hold - it's been a long, difficult but fun year building this, and I've learned a great deal about being an architect from your feedback and suggestions.

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Mikko
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I had a look at places that I skipped earlier and it seems that you forgot to include an exit route in 1N1E on level 9.

agaricus5
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That's a good point.

Thanks. It will be fixed for the final version.

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HSE
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I wouldn't mind being a beta tester...

agaricus5
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sebhaque wrote:
I wouldn't mind being a beta tester...

Really?

That's great!

When I'm finished reshuffling, which is more difficult than it actually looks, I'll send you and anyone else interested in beta-testing the final product a version of it.

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gamer_extreme_101
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Well, seeing as I've got a whole summer ahead of me(just finished school), if you still need a beta tester, just let me know. I'm interested to see what an experienced DRODer can do in a hold.

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HSE
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I'm posing as a first-time DRODer who hasn't got a lot of experience and has just stumbled upon a hold to download.

agaricus5
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sebhaque wrote:
I'm posing as a first-time DRODer who hasn't got a lot of experience and has just stumbled upon a hold to download.

This then leads onto something that I wanted to discuss with you (as in plural, referring to all who may beta-test the hold) later, but since you (sebhaque ) brought it up, I might as well ask now.

How would you like to do the beta-testing? Should everyone helping each try to complete the hold for themselves (I'll leave the warp room in so you can level skip), or should I assign levels to each person to test separately, just like how the 1.5 beta was carried out?

The former has the advantage of meaning that it ensures the hold can actually be completed (or not, as the case may be), and it will help identify levels or rooms that seem out of place in terms of difficulty or are just too unpleasant to make playing that far into the hold fun.

The latter, however, has the advantage of making the testing much quicker, as the testing can be divided up into several parts, and everyone is testing a unique level, increasing efficiency.

The response for help to beta-test the hold has been far better than I ever imagined (although a bit slow to start).

At the moment, 4 or 5 of you have shown interest in testing already, so it seems to me that perhaps testing a final product is more desirable than testing a work in progress, due to the fact that works in progress are constantly changing (which sounds exactly like what I think Eytanz or Oneiromancer said to me about this some time ago).

[Note to self - listen to people who have already finished their own holds as well. ]

The hold itself is still being blown apart and rematerialised; some rooms have been moved, and others added in places, so there will be a huge difference to the hold when you next see it, especially in later levels. I think that it will be finished and ready for testing in about a week or two, so I'm nearly there, I think.

Thanks for all the support, everyone. Working with the DROD Forum has been great!

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Resident Medic/Mycologist

gamer_extreme_101
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1939
Registered: 03-07-2004
IP: Logged

I wasn't around for the beta testing of 1.5, but it does sound like a good idea. I say to go for the idea of seperate level testing, but you ARE the authour, and it is 112% up to you.

(Don't ask about that extra 12%)

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--That guy with a million different aliases since he doesn't like this name anymore.

gds
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 50
Registered: 02-06-2004
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agaricus5 wrote:
How would you like to do the beta-testing? Should everyone helping each try to complete the hold for themselves (I'll leave the warp room in so you can level skip), or should I assign levels to each person to test separately...

My opinion is that the whole hold should be played by each tester. I've got two reasons for that. First, you get less chances that problems or unintentional solutions get missed. Second, it will give you better feedback on the overall feel of the hold.
The downside of it is that it's such a big hold, it will take a while to playtest.

Agaricus, I also realise that I didn't give you any more feedback on level 10. I haven't had a chance to play the latest version you released and I don't Drod on this computer but here is what little I can remember:
- I thought of a more elegant way (I think) to add a savepoint in 1N2E (the one where you race a mimic against a snake). I would replace the green door by a red door and move the green door to the other end of that narrow corridor. Put the savepoint in between and replace that force arrow the mimic go through by a trapdoor (assuming snakes don't croos trapdoors). I think it's more aesthetically pleasing than your orb suggestion.

- In the room east of that (1N3E ? the one with 3 of 4 sections divided by red doors with a few trapdoors in each section), I remember thinking that another savepoint would be helpfull. The savepoint would go in one of the mimic section so that it can only be accessed after you've dropped all trapdoors. Unfortunately, I can't really remember my reasoning. Something like you could screw up after stepping on the savepoint and have to restart the whole mimic business.

HSE
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 162
Registered: 04-09-2004
IP: Logged

I completely agree with gds. He's basically stated my reasons so I won't waste space by typing mine out.
Agaricus, I have a question. Is the hold going to be anyone edit for the beta or will it be something else?