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TML_Winston
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icon LeyLines: How to survive? (0)  
There seems to be no way to prevent losing troops. Even with food showing I lose troops to "Lack of Supplies". I have Gias Blessing so all my troops have Endurance and still lose troops. I have positive cash, and cash flow. I am real confused as to how to keep troops alive. I lose more to these events than to actual combat.

I cast healing on a hero undead and he does not heal. I use the runecasters to cast healing.

The endurance function of this game is making it not fun. I cannot track when I am about to lose troops.. some warnings would be helpful. The large scale of this game pushes for Alerts and not just to do stuff.

Any ideas how to prevent this?
12-04-2007 at 12:47 AM
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grobblewobble
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Hi Winston!

Are you playing dwarf? If you are losing troops to "lack of supplies", it is a Dependent unit. Check the skill list of the unit..

A dependent unit needs supplies to survive. This means it either should stay close to a city, or should stay close to a unit with the Supplier skill. The Dwarves have the Caravan and a battleship for this purpose. So whenever your dependent units go adventuring, take a Caravan along. Use the survey button to see where your dependent units are safe (within the white lines).

If you don't like dependent units, try another race. Dwarf is the dependent race. Most other races don't have this feature.

quote:
I cast healing on a hero undead and he does not heal. I use the runecasters to cast healing.

Do you literally mean you had an undead hero? Or was it an ordinary unit?
If you hover your mouse over the undead skill, you will see the following text:
"Undead are immune to poison and plague. However, they do not heal normally nor by magical means, are vulnerable to exorcism and cannot cross running water (ie rivers)."
Undead units can't be healed, except by necromancers.

[Last edited by grobblewobble at 12-04-2007 09:28 AM]
12-04-2007 at 08:30 AM
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Radiant
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icon Re: LeyLines: How to survive? (0)  
What Grobblewobble said.

Note that dwarves (in particular) are not recommended for beginning players.

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12-04-2007 at 05:04 PM
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TML_Winston
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icon Re: LeyLines: How to survive? (0)  
Is there some sort of indication to say that this troop has This RANGE away from a supplier before they run out of supplies? Yes, I guess I was playing dwarfs.

What was rather fun was my hero was alive and then died during battle and became undead. That was really cool.

still.. I played another race and got things like: Your scout perished in the forrest. Etc. I had a troop affected by Black Plague but I never got a notice it was affected.. I assume during battle? I am trying to tease information out of the interface but am not being as successful as I need to be.


12-04-2007 at 06:25 PM
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Radiant
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quote:
TML_Winston wrote:
Is there some sort of indication to say that this troop has This RANGE away from a supplier before they run out of supplies?

Yes. Use the Survey button to find out where your troops are "supplied". Also, any unit can go one turn without supplies, undead units don't need supplies (Chaos magic has a spell that turns your units into undead), and there are a handful that don't need it anyway.

quote:

Your scout perished in the forrest. Etc. I had a troop affected by Black Plague but I never got a notice it was affected..

You can tell by the skull on the unit portrait - that indicates a negative effect. Plus there's a Body magic spell that does the same.

The terrain effects are intentional - I find that in many strategy games you can simply ignore most of the terrain. Once you're used to it, walking around swamps and deserts becomes second nature.



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12-04-2007 at 06:35 PM
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TML_Winston
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quote:

The terrain effects are intentional - I find that in many strategy games you can simply ignore most of the terrain. Once you're used to it, walking around swamps and deserts becomes second nature.



Terrain affects movement in general. Death from terrain is harsh considering the climate and supposed localization of the creatures. People in Cities, really in cities like New York or modern day cities have no survival skill or very little taught to them. However, in the times these fantasy games are, these creatures are taught basic living from the get go. Very few creatures would not understand how to get food from the wild. They don't have running toilets! They are able to understand much more to a degree that we do. Now, running around as an Army you need supplies and living off the land makes it harder. I am just confused that food is a resource but only for cities? Its a concept. Interesting would be "Your army has died because it was bitten by a scorpion while using the restroom." That alert would freak people out. heh.

Thanks for the reply.

12-04-2007 at 08:52 PM
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Radiant
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quote:
TML_Winston wrote:
However, in the times these fantasy games are, these creatures are taught basic living from the get go. Very few creatures would not understand how to get food from the wild.

Yes, and that is why every unit is free to walk around anywhere on the map (other than dwarves, who can only pull off that foraging trick in caves). But try hunting for food in a desert... oops, there isn't any :)

Food for cities represents the agricultural potential of the land. Armies are assumed to carry rations around.

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12-04-2007 at 10:27 PM
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grobblewobble
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quote:
I had a troop affected by Black Plague but I never got a notice it was affected..

I'm very sorry to hear this is getting in the way of fun for you.

You are not the first to complain about not getting a notice, either. It would perhaps be more user-friendly if the game did generate a message the moment a unit is struck by plague, especially to beginning players who don't even realise yet that such a disease exists in the game. The brief messages option could disable this.

Besides not getting a message, I must say that terrain effects like this are a part of the charm of Leylines for me. It does take a while to get used to at first. Some areas, like desert and swamp, are simply dangerous. To me that is highly realistic and one of the original features of Leylines. It also means you will have to think carefully about how to claim a mine on a hill or a leyline in a lake (since those freeze in winter).

There are many ways around this problem, please note. Magical or undead units are immune to plague and the spell Toxic Touch (chaos 2) grants immunity as well. Degenerate (chaos 1) is another way to "cure" an affected unit. Almost every race has at least some units with endurance (or regeneration), who can travel deserts without any problem. There are also some spells granting endurance: Rock's Embrace (body 1) and Wreath of Flames (energy 2). Finally, building a fortress or watchtower on any tile will protect units camping there from the heat or cold (this is a convenient solution for mines on hills).

Also, could you please take a look at the discussion about Mending in the balance thread? It's about the question whether the Mending spell (body 1) should provide a cure for plague (and poison).

quote:
What was rather fun was my hero was alive and then died during battle and became undead. That was really cool.

This must actually be a bug, it's not supposed to happen. Do you remember any details about the fight, or do you perhaps have a save file?

[Last edited by grobblewobble at 12-05-2007 08:54 AM]
12-05-2007 at 08:31 AM
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TML_Winston
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icon Re: LeyLines: How to survive? (0)  
Thanks for the informations.

I like battles, and getting economy up to speed to support conquest. I figured fortresses would add supply routes but they seem not to. I built a road, then fortresses to a foriegn city and then walked some runecasters to attack near and they perished due to lack of supplies.

The AI is pretty aggressive which is good. I get to sit and defend a bit which is good.

Group movement is still a little confusing. Would be nice to just tag a group of 6 as "group 1" or something too.

Once I conquer a city, how do I turn it to produce troops instead of just being a chaotic crazy thing? just because the Race is different should not mean they are not willing to fight for the PAY.
12-05-2007 at 04:11 PM
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grobblewobble
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quote:
I figured fortresses would add supply routes but they seem not to.

At this moment they don't, but it's an interesting idea imo.

quote:
Once I conquer a city, how do I turn it to produce troops instead of just being a chaotic crazy thing?

When you have just captured it, it takes three days until the city is out of disorder.

quote:
just because the Race is different should not mean they are not willing to fight for the PAY.

Each race in Leylines has its own strengths and weaknesses. If you can build foreign units, that is generally a large advantage. For example, if you capture a human city from the barbarians and can next start building agriculturists, you can give all of your cities a substantial growth boost.

So it was a design decision not to make things so easy. Captured cities can still produce lots of mana and gold for you.

Also, there do exist ways to get foreign units. The regency can use drain life, elves can bribe, theria can use doppelgangers, any race can buy mercenaries, in body magic there is a clone spell and if that's not enough, you can play as an alliance. But at least these ways take some effort.

[Last edited by grobblewobble at 12-06-2007 07:46 AM]
12-06-2007 at 07:30 AM
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TML_Winston
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icon Re: LeyLines: How to survive? (0)  
Good information:

In a conquered city, is it still in control of the enemy so they can boot your troops? Do I need to keep garrison forces?
12-06-2007 at 02:46 PM
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grobblewobble
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To capture a city, you need to occupy it with at least one militant unit. As soon as you do so, it will change color. This means it is now yours (even if it may be in disorder). The enemy can't expel you from it. You can leave some units in the garrison to protect it, but this is not necessary. Unless the enemy comes back with militant troops, of course..

Does that answer your question?

[Last edited by grobblewobble at 12-06-2007 04:50 PM]
12-06-2007 at 04:48 PM
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TML_Winston
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quote:
grobblewobble wrote:
To capture a city, you need to occupy it with at least one militant unit. As soon as you do so, it will change color. This means it is now yours (even if it may be in disorder). The enemy can't expel you from it. You can leave some units in the garrison to protect it, but this is not necessary. Unless the enemy comes back with militant troops, of course..

Does that answer your question?


Yes thanks.

I still play Master of Magic so much. Still think Muds are best :) *wink*. This is a good game I just need to be able to get to the good stuff faster.

The reason Age of Empires does so well is you are fighting before you know it. Civ IV on weak is kinda weak.


Any recommendations on RACE to start with? Maybe some Army combo's?
12-06-2007 at 09:20 PM
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Radiant
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quote:
TML_Winston wrote:
Any recommendations on RACE to start with? Maybe some Army combo's?


Sure.

Humans can be a very fast race. Train lots of cavalry units, and you can swarm the map with them. If you run into resistance, 5 knights + 1 paladin work very well.

The S'Sirthe have lots of troops that boost other troops. Aside from that, a group of 6 Relentless is effectively a group of twelve. Plus many of their units can swim and/or hide.

It may be worth putting a lot of resources into research (many races have cheap buildings with +4 research) and magically summon a huge army when necessary. This works especially well with body magic (golems and vampires) or energy magic (elementals and dragons).

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12-07-2007 at 12:32 AM
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TML_Winston
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I just gave up on a game with humans. I finally keeping my players SOMEWHAT from not going away due to terrain. Although, the pathfinding just auto moves them into desert which makes no sense. Anways..

I had a power group of 5 warlocks and 1 swordsman and walked into a town and the town revolted before next turn and I lost all 6???? They turned Raider? I could not keep my cities from revolting. Spending hundreds of dukats to use festivals, KEEPing troops out of the cities to increase happiness and it did NO good. My original three cities revolt when there was no reason. Never attacked, Strong economy including food and a strong military in other lands.

This is Extremely frustrating. Also, The black plague just appears out of nowhere. I cannot seem to track how it happens.
Losing troops to cities revolting is bad. They should expel the troops.. but losing my main group because I came into a town and boom it was conquered before so I am moving troops through the area.. and losing them ALL to raiders.

Basically I ended up fighting my own previous troops to the point I said screw it and exited the game.

What is trick there? I cannot do festivals in a row to raise it. I know that keeping troops in a city is bad. I cannot pacify cities by keeping troops in there.. There does not seem to be a building combo to keep my cities happy. I need a clue, or I just.. cant deal anymore. I AM ONE STUBBORN PLAYER but I am getting drained by lack of information as to WHY things are happening.
12-07-2007 at 01:20 AM
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grobblewobble
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quote:
TML_Winston wrote:
I had a power group of 5 warlocks and 1 swordsman and walked into a town and the town revolted before next turn and I lost all 6???? They turned Raider?


So the city revolted the same turn as you captured it? Strange, I thought that was not possible..

You really seem to have a hard time with city morale. Could you maybe upload or send me a saved game? I would like to have a look, maybe I can help you better if I see how it happens.

One possible cause: having units with the plague in garrison makes citizens unhappy.

quote:
Also, The black plague just appears out of nowhere. I cannot seem to track how it happens.

The AI can cast a spell that causes plague. This is probably what happened. Having a healer helps here.

One way to get better city morale is to worship Jolina, she increases happiness in all your cities every turn.

[Last edited by grobblewobble at 12-07-2007 04:20 PM]
12-07-2007 at 04:16 PM
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The Mystic
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quote:
Radiant wrote:
The terrain effects are intentional - I find that in many strategy games you can simply ignore most of the terrain. Once you're used to it, walking around swamps and deserts becomes second nature.


I just build roads and/or moonpaths through them to make them easier to walk through, and cast the global spell Rejuvenation to help keep my units alive.

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12-07-2007 at 04:38 PM
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grobblewobble
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icon Re: LeyLines: How to survive? (0)  
Some more info on morale.

Cities have will normally slowly lose happiness. Things that raise happiness are:

- giving a festival
- finishing a building (finishing a unit does not affect morale)
- having a building that increases happiness
(round table for humans, thermae for regency..)
- having Jolina Lightbringer as your goddess
- winning a fight nearby the city

There are also factors that can lower happiness:

- cities that were not originally yours tend to grow dissatisfied faster
- having more than 3 militant units inside the city
- having any unit with plague inside
- destroying another city
- levies
- rush build
- enemy ghosts around your city (these are always hidden, so you will need detection to find out; however, I haven't ever seen the AI use them yet)

quote:

Any recommendations on RACE to start with? Maybe some Army combo's?

Each race has several good combo's. Some examples:

human
- knights + paladin / mounted scout / hero with cavalry
Combinations of knights with other cavalry units form a very fast and quite strong attack force. But watch out for enemies with break charge!!
- apprentice mage + bowman / ballista / warlock
Do not underestimate the apprentice mage. Their paralyzing shots are dangerous, since a paralyzed enemy is helpless against "standard" ranged attacks. Adding a unit with tactician (an engineer for example) is also useful in this combination.

elf
- envoy + druid / illusion
Envoys are a sneaky way to win without fighting, especially when hidden by a druid or accompanied by a horde of decoys.
- marksman / enchantress + ethereal wall
ethereal walls are ideal to protect your ranged attackers
- phantom + jinx
Jinx is not a unit, it's a spell (mind 1). It's actually a curse, reducing the resistance of the victim by 3 points. Nasty in combination with any unit with a magical attack, phantom is just one example.

dwarf
- miners + war machine + working spider
War machines are among the heaviest hitters in the game. They are expensive, however. Build miners to pay their upkeep. War machines are also bulky, meaning they can't cross forests or hills unless you build a road on it. So, build roads to the enemy (hence the working spider). Of course they also need a few caravans as support.
War machines are both strong and fast. They do have a weakness, however: low resistance! Keep this in mind. If the enemy relies heavily on units with a magical attack, you're better off building slayers.
- slayers + chanter + runecaster + battering ram
Slayers, with decent support, make a formidable attack force, be it a bit slow. And of course you must take caravans along.
- berserker + escape tunnel + city bomb
This is a fun and very efficient way to defend your city. With an escape tunnel the berserkers will survive even if they are defeated. And because they have regeneration, they will have full health the next day!

regency
- daemon + invisibility
A daemon will summon a wraith into battle. If the enemy can't see you, you can keep attacking and fleeing with the daemon, each time killing something with summoned wraiths. Invisibility is a high-level spell in mind 1.
- daemon + spectre
Both the daemon and his summons benefit from the unholy aura of a spectre.
- skeleton / golem / vampire + spectre + necromancer
Make your legions of terror even more terrifying. Necromancer is the only way to heal undead (besides the tombstones you can find in swamps sometimes).
- any undead + a road
This is the workaround for rivers, with a road (bridge) undead can cross it.

Well, there is more for the other races, but I'm going to bed now. Hope you found something useful.

[Last edited by grobblewobble at 12-07-2007 10:54 PM]
12-07-2007 at 10:51 PM
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wonkyth
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icon Re: LeyLines: How to survive? (0)  
I find that a good dwarven ix is "4Xbattleship+1Xdivingpod+1Xchanter"

or just six Grand Battleships...

I reckon the the best units for the dwarves are the runecasters, the firewalkers and the battleships

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[Last edited by wonkyth at 12-08-2007 09:16 PM]
12-08-2007 at 09:14 PM
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grobblewobble
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quote:
wonkyth wrote:
I reckon the the best units for the dwarves are the runecasters, the firewalkers and the battleships

In my opinion it depends on the situation which units are the best. Battleships are pretty buff yes, great on island maps (and useless on large continents). Both runecasters and firewalkers are good when you are fighting units with high armor and low resistance, with a magical attack. Like phantoms. Against units with high restistance and a non-magical attack (astral rangers, to give an example) they do very poorly.
Aside from that, they are both support units. The runecaster heals, the firewalker protects against direct damage spells.
What makes Leylines so interesting, is that no single unit is "the best" for any race. It all depends on the type of army you are fighting against and other factors.

In any case, there are many units in each race offering support of all kinds (be it healing, blessing, tactician, siegecraft, guide, or otherwise). Using the various support types to increase the effectiveness of your army, while adapting to the type of enemy you are fighting against, is what Leylines is all about.

[Last edited by grobblewobble at 12-09-2007 07:50 PM]
12-09-2007 at 07:36 PM
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I believe this is my save game.


12-09-2007 at 08:49 PM
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grobblewobble
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Thank you, Winston.

I took a look. I was impressed with your cities, you did build up a solid economy there. ;)

Some tips, I hope it helps.

First of all, I am afraid there is a game mechanic that's not obvious enough yet: corruption. When you own more than 100 gold, you will lose gold every turn to corruption. The more gold you have in cash, the worse the corruption will get.

As a side note to Radiant, I think the interface should make it more clear to new players what's going on here. Maybe we could add a help function? If you agree, I'd like to help building it.

So to continue the story, you can see how much gold is lost to corruption in the mirror screen. The more gold you have, the more you lose to corruption. So try to spend the money before you lose it. Building more units is the most obvious way. As long as you own less than 100 gold, you will not lose anything to corruption.

The city that revolted was occupied by two units who suffered from the plague. Units with the plague lower the morale of the city they occupy. This was the reason the morale of this city got so low. If you have units with the plague, move them outside of cities.

That brings me to the problem you have been suffering from so much: how to prevent/deal with the plague. First of all, the reason those soldiers had the plague is, that the AI was casting a spell that causes it. The easiest solution is to build healers. Send them along with your soldiers as they march to the front, they will need them.

Really hope this helps.


[Last edited by grobblewobble at 12-09-2007 09:30 PM]
12-09-2007 at 09:29 PM
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Radiant
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quote:
grobblewobble wrote:
As a side note to Radiant, I think the interface should make it more clear to new players what's going on here. Maybe we could add a help function? If you agree, I'd like to help building it.


Ironically, there is a help function, only people seem not to read it overly much. What I think would work best is creating a Beginner's Guide, in HTML, and add that to the game package. You are quite welcome to help building it.

Also, some events need better notification in-game, I'll take care of that but am open to suggestions.

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12-09-2007 at 11:27 PM
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One in-game notificaticion I'd like to suggest is for having so much gold that you're losing 50 gold or more a turn to corruption.

A beginners guide sounds like a good idea, I'll see what I can do.

[Last edited by grobblewobble at 12-10-2007 07:19 AM]
12-10-2007 at 07:14 AM
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wonkyth
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quote:
(astral rangers, to give an example) they do very poorly.


yes, but astral rangers aren't really built for fighting.

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12-10-2007 at 08:02 AM
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TML_Winston
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Thanks for the information.

I want to run an smooth, clean operation. That involves keeping the fielded armies to a low number, with strong steady supply lines. It also means keeping a large warchest to collect strong mercenaries when needed. Keep strong defensive fortifications, keep the troops at high level (technological) and focused. Having a strong economy allows you to switch workers from city to city and allowing for any hostile incursion by being able to field armies quicker as you can absorb monetary hit for quick building.

This game has several issues that does not make sense to my fun(opinion, etc).

1. Corruption. I dont mind that, but fielding dozens of units in the field just gets TIRESOME. I do not want to micro manage dozens of units, I want to field several large armies and then let the others be managed in cities.
2. Revolting taking your armies. I can see very little about how keeping troops in a city lowers morale. I live in a military town (largest on East Coast of USA) and the military provides steady income, morale, and entertainment. Military troops provide husbands, and needed income into the local economy allowing it to survive depressions and other problems. They are available to help with disasters and such. So I question this premise greatly... I would say a full 6 garrison would help keep the people content. ALSO, if you are going to corrupt the entire town, just maybe have a "unit revolution" flag. So that garrisoned troops will forestall revolution.

3. Notifications. I did not select brief.. PLEASE help me with notifications.

Ack have to run.. maybe more later.

Winston
The Mage's Lair Online Gaming Service www.tmlogs.com).



12-10-2007 at 03:50 PM
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Radiant
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icon Re: LeyLines: How to survive? (0)  
Corruption is calculated over whatever is left after paying your expenses. Thus having more troops effectively means less corruption.

Grobble - I kind of don't remember why militant units hurt morale; do you know what that rule was for?

And what do you mean with "please help me with notifications"?

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12-10-2007 at 06:05 PM
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grobblewobble
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quote:

I want to run an smooth, clean operation. That involves keeping the fielded armies to a low number, with strong steady supply lines. It also means keeping a large warchest to collect strong mercenaries when needed. Keep strong defensive fortifications, keep the troops at high level (technological) and focused.


I think I actually have the same type of playing style as you do. While building more units is one way to prevent corruption, another very simple way is to produce less gold and more mana. You can use spells like might of giants (B), ancestral learning (MM), wreath of flame (EE), glory (CCC) or imperviousness (BBB) to boost the strength of your army. This way, you can keep it a small, but elite attack force. As I said before, it is also very important to use the available support units, for detection, healing, siegecraft, blessing, guide, or anything else that the situation demands.

As for corruption, if you do not choose quickstart or the easiest difficulty setting, you're allowed to choose a god to worship. If you choose Sartho the Possessor, corruption is halved and starts at 200 gold. This is by far the most effective way in the game to maintain a large gold reserve.

quote:
I kind of don't remember why militant units hurt morale; do you know what that rule was for?

This rule has been in the game since the very beginning, but I'm not sure why. It never really bothered me, though.
12-10-2007 at 06:37 PM
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TML_Winston
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I haven't gotten far into the Magic portion of the game. I want to see if I can go forth from a economy game which always seems to be the hardest in most RTS/RPGS. Get the economy going, then you can support your other endeavours. Corruption is an interesting limit on economy powering. Need a line item that states corruption, or is there one.. I miss it. I still will econ power house.

Radiant, Yes.. indications. Since I do not have "Brief" checked I would hope that things like: "Your unit now has been affected by Black Plague" would show up.

Healers heal black plague?

What if I want to pacify a rebellious populace? Why cant I just bring some militants to the city and rule from Fear. Basically the populace does not have to be happy. History proves this case to be true from dictatorship standpoints. Rarely are dictatorships brought down from within.. ie: Saddam. Fear + bribery is strong motivation for citizens.


12-10-2007 at 08:07 PM
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grobblewobble
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quote:
I want to see if I can go forth from a economy game which always seems to be the hardest in most RTS/RPGS.

You might want to try the envoy (elves), they can bribe hostile armies.

quote:
Need a line item that states corruption, or is there one..

Go to the mirror screen. In the top right of the screen you will see "Treasury" and a summary of your income. Corruption can be viewed there. If you hover your mouse over the "corruption" field, you will read this in the info field to the bottom of the screen:

When your treasury exceeds 100 ducats, you will lose x % each week to corruption; this is race dependent.

quote:
Healers heal black plague?

Yes, they do.

quote:
What if I want to pacify a rebellious populace?

First of all, you must make sure that anyone suffering from the plague stays outside of your cities. To raise happiness you need to give festivals.

quote:
Fear + bribery is strong motivation for citizens.

If you like, read "festival" as a nice word for bribery. ;)

[Last edited by grobblewobble at 12-11-2007 08:10 AM]
12-11-2007 at 07:45 AM
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