Monkey
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File: tar.hold (872 bytes)
Downloaded 51 times.
License: Public Domain

It's a little bug I found.
Key:
B: Beethro
M: Tar Mother
T: Tar
|: Sword

B
|
MM

When you cut up the tar mothers, conquer the room, & re-enter the room, it should look like this.

B
|
TT

This is unintentional, as all good DRODers know.



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[Last edited by Monkey at 05-27-2007 07:35 PM]

Tim
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Looked through the hold. Looks very intentional.

This does not look like a bug to me.

In TCB it is possible to have a 1x1 tar under a mother. And no, it is not possible to destroy a 1x1 tar

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Doom
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...ok, I'm kind of bad at spotting subtle sarcasm, but I hope I got it right here and Tim isn't being very serious.

..and the last statement is incorrect. It's very possible to destroy 1x1 tar because 1x1 tar always equals a tar baby: A tar baby that shouldn't form after the room has been cleared.

Monkey
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Doom wrote:
It's very possible to destroy 1x1 tar because 1x1 tar always equals a tar baby

No, Doom, it's a 1x1 blob of tar, not a tar baby. Since it's impossible to have a 1x1 or 1x2 or 2x1 blob of tarstuff, this is a bug. And since the tar is considered a corner, it is indestructible.

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Doom
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Yes, yes, I know *sigh*

And 1x1 tar blobs should not exist because they should become tar babies. So this is a bug. That's exactly what my point was.

...

Briareos
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Doom wrote:
Yes, yes, I know *sigh*

And 1x1 tar blobs should not exist because they should become tar babies. So this is a bug. That's exactly what my point was.

Yeah, but - tar babies suddenly popping up out of the blue every time you enter an already solved room *without stabbing any tar* is an even bigger bug in my book...

np: Anders Ilar - Ludwijka 2 (Ludwijka Extended Visit)

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NiroZ
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Seems to me if it should just vanish altogether.

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 05-30-2007 03:04 PM]

Beef Row
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Briareos wrote:

Doom wrote:
Yes, yes, I know *sigh*

And 1x1 tar blobs should not exist because they should become tar babies. So this is a bug. That's exactly what my point was.

Yeah, but - tar babies suddenly popping up out of the blue every time you enter an already solved room *without stabbing any tar* is an even bigger bug in my book...

Well, which of those is a bigger bug depends ENTIRELY on whether the room has a Targate, doesn't it?

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Doom
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Briareos wrote:

Doom wrote:
Yes, yes, I know *sigh*

And 1x1 tar blobs should not exist because they should become tar babies. So this is a bug. That's exactly what my point was.

Yeah, but - tar babies suddenly popping up out of the blue every time you enter an already solved room *without stabbing any tar* is an even bigger bug in my book...

I covered that in my first post. Of course it's obvious what the correct behaviour should be. Any other questions?

Monkey
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BTW, I found out that all 1x1 blobs of tarstuff are considered corners, even if it's something like

M=Mud
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

... while tar(as Tim said) & gel are indestructible as 1x1 blobs. I'm guessing because each 1x1 blob of tarstuff never gets connected.

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[Last edited by Monkey at 05-28-2007 03:00 PM]

Tim
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Perhaps I should repeat this again.

In TCB it becomes official that you can create mothers without tarstuff. That means it's up to the architect to decide if they want to have tarstuff under mothers or not.

If you want to have 1x1 mothers with tar in a room, then you should realise that they will become uncuttable tar corners after you clear the room. This is completely intentional, because TCB cannot guess which tar can be removed.

It's like scripting. You get more features, but you still have to use it correctly. If you're not up to it, don't use it.

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silver
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I can't find it anymore, but I thought Mike said he patched it (though I think hasn't released it) so that the tar wouldn't appear under the mother until after the first spawn, to prevent 1x1 tar from appearing.


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Tim
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silver wrote:
I can't find it anymore, but I thought Mike said he patched it (though I think hasn't released it) so that the tar wouldn't appear under the mother until after the first spawn, to prevent 1x1 tar from appearing.

Just in case, I can't find it either (and I looked for some time). And you are right. But in the meantime, please don't use 1x1 tar

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Doom
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Tim wrote:
Perhaps I should repeat this again.

Thanks for a much better explanation, Tim.

In TCB it becomes official that you can create mothers without tarstuff. That means it's up to the architect to decide if they want to have tarstuff under mothers or not.

I just reinstalled JtRH just to check it, and indeed, this was changed. But not optimally, I think. It seems that the new way is to make placing tar-less mothers easier. What I don't get is, why should mothers get a block of tar with them when you place one on an area without tar. When you have a single mother, you don't want tar under it.

My solution would be removing this auto-tar property from tar mothers and disallowing placing tar on a mother when you couldn't place any on that tile normally (to prevent tar from existing outside normal usage). If I missed something this isn't compatible with, let me know...

But in the meantime, please don't use 1x1 tar

The old method still works as intented...

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[Last edited by Doom at 05-28-2007 05:37 PM]

coppro
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Tim wrote:
because TCB cannot guess which tar can be removed.

No, it can guess, it just doesn't. Adding code to remove unstable tar from a room upon entry would not be hard. It just hasn't been done, and I'm afraid to touch it until we get an official answer on what the solution should be.

Jeff_Ray...
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coppro: Maybe only buggy blobs that are meant to turn in babies should go.

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Yellow_Mage
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silver wrote:
I can't find it anymore, but I thought Mike said he patched it (though I think hasn't released it) so that the tar wouldn't appear under the mother until after the first spawn, to prevent 1x1 tar from appearing.

Bingo. You can just put down Tarless mothers down easier. That is all. Before you had to put tar down, put the mother on and remove the tar. Other than skipping the first part, no properties have been changed. Although it's a pretty awesome bug, as you can make a maze out of 1x1 tar. You can still edit out the tar in editor so it doesn't happen, but it easily missed.

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coppro
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It was an intentional decision during beta-testing that tar should be permitted under mothers in the editor, because of the odd behavior that can occur with black gates that will start down and rerise after the first spawn. It has lead to a number of headaches (especially graphically), but it's supposed to be like that. Tar remaining after a mother is placed over it is a bug, as well as a few display issues. AFAIK, there has been no official decision as to this issue.

Yellow_Mage
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That's interesting... I was thinking about that, but I didn't really play with that idea. Hmm...

I don't really consider this as a 'bug' I'd called it a glitch. I don't mind how it is, but probably the red placement error box should be around it just so the architect is aware that an error may occur because of placement. I don't mind it as you can remove it. If someone tried to get a use out of it, wouldn't very elegant but it seems ok as it is to me.

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coppro
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There are at least three bugs though:

#1: Tar is not recalculated when a mother is removed. This is definitely a bug, leading to rooms with illegal tar formations
#2: Tar looks funny in some situations. This is a graphical bug.
#3: Tar can occur as a single space if on a mother and the room is then cleared. I would classify it as a bug, as it is A) unintuitive and B) allows for rooms that you can only cross if uncleared.

Kevin_P86
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coppro wrote:
#3: ... B) allows for rooms that you can only cross if uncleared.

This can be done anyways, even with only "legal" tar shapes.

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trick
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Certainly seemed buggy to me. 1x1 tar shapes aren't allowed anywhere else, after all. So, I've made it so that unstable tar previously underneath tar mothers is removed on entry in cleared rooms. Feel free to shout at me if I've done something stupid though

B..    b..     
.M. -> ...     
...    ...     .: empty space    B: closed black gate
               T: tar            b: open black gate
B..    B..     M: mother on tar
.MT -> .TT
.TT    .TT

coppro
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Here's another bug:

The following formation of tar (legal via the editor) looks really weird:

.TT.
.TTT.
..T.

Jatopian
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coppro wrote:
The following formation of tar (legal via the editor) looks really weird:

.TT.
.TTT.
..T.

Not only that, it shouldn't happen at all.

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trick
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How do you make that formation? I can't reproduce it (neither in latest build or 3.0.0).

coppro
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Build a formation like this:

TT.
TTT
.TT

Add mothers and remove them to get this:

TT.
TTM
.MT

Remove the bottom-right tar space.

trick
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Oh, okay. That's just the same bug, though, so that's no longer possible without mothers on top.

I did notice the tile selection with the mothers present could use some improvement though (also in a few similar cases), so I've fixed that. (Well, fixed might be a bit strong word since it still looks a bit off, but there's no way to fix that without adding additional tar tiles..)