Jeff_Ray...
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I wonder what will happen after DROD 4 comes out. It seems it will be the last DROD released. What do you think? What will you people do after the last DROD comes out? I find it a shame there won't be much DROD anymore...

Do you think Caravel might come around to do a DROD 5 after a while?

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Pinnacle
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There will always be user holds, and other Caravel games (which should also be excellent.) There will probably be some SmS holds for 4.0 as well.

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vittro
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What? Last DROD released? Oh, no... My life is finished without DROD! At least they could make a 3rd person MMORPG in the Eighth, where you can be a Smiter, a Guard, etc... Or a turn based FPS, like Doom Rpg.

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silver
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you do realize we're talking about a point like 4-5 years in the future, right?


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AlefBet
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I wouldn't worry too much about that. DROD 4 won't be done for a while yet (probably longer than TCB took after JtRH), and I'm kind of excited for the next few games planned before D4. DROD 4 could possibly be the last major episode in the series, but since it's a ways off from being published, any number of things could change. If people keep buying, playing, and raving about DROD, I'm confident that at least the SMS's will continue to be produced. And if the demand is there for more DROD, I expect Caravel as a company will make every viable attempt to meet that demand. (After all, they'd be unwise not to. . . .)

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Pilchard VIII
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I heard a crazy rumor that patches would be released to add features to TCB. Is this true? If it is, then DROD 4 could be made in TCB.

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[Last edited by Pilchard VIII at 05-11-2007 09:39 PM]

Ravon
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Pilchard VIII wrote:
I heard a crazy rumor that patches would be released to add features to TCB. Is this true? If it is, then DROD 4 could be made in TCB.

It's not exactly a "crazy rumor"
Seriously, read down to the part titled, "CaravelNet will Get Better" or somesuch...

Jatopian
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I thought they weren't doing a DROD 4, just a series of patches to 3.

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AlefBet
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Jatopian wrote:
I thought they weren't doing a DROD 4, just a series of patches to 3.

It is my understanding right now that the plan is to do both, but DROD 4 is far enough off that by that time the plan could be changed.

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b0rsuk
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Here are my guesses:
- vehicles
- raytracing, photon mapping or global illumination
- ability to pause the game
- Starforce
- lip synchronzation
- random face generator for monsters
- myspace support
- 5 new tar variants, 3 new snakes, and 2 monsters that work exactly like a roach. Additionally, 2 elements which are either random, travel multiple squares per move (Briar, I'm looking at you !), are not in synch with spawn counter, or are invisible.

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Pilchard VIII
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You forgot the most important thing.

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13th Slayer
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Jeff_Ray... wrote:
I wonder what will happen after DROD 4 comes out. It seems it will be the last DROD released. What do you think? What will you people do after the last DROD comes out? I find it a shame there won't be much DROD anymore...

Do you think Caravel might come around to do a DROD 5 after a while?

Why it should be the last

Sillyman
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Hmm... IANACR (I am not a Caravel Representative), but I think that in DROD 4.0, all there will be is an uber-advanced script engine, and a library of pre-made elements from the previous versions, reduced to the same level as you're average NPC, except that they're used a lot. Basically, DROD 4.0 will be a Meta-Drod, which takes the load off Caravel Games by shoving it onto the community. Of course, there will be a few new elements, and the Official holds, but the main show is the ability to make your own elements. Wouldn't that be cool?

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[Last edited by Sillyman at 10-02-2007 08:38 AM]

NiroZ
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NO

Someone Else
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Yeah, I think that Sillyman has a relatively extreme position on this subject, so I wouldn't worry.

Sillyman
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Oh well. There goes my hope of being able to do anything and everything with the DROD engine.

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Kevin_P86
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Sillyman wrote:
Oh well. There goes my hope of being able to do anything and everything with the DROD engine.

You already can do anything and everything with the DROD engine.

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Sillyman
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Really? Then how come you can't walk on NPCs yet? And how come several crucial features to making a BF interpreter, or for that matter, anything USABLY Turing Complete, are missing? Huh? Huh?

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Kevin_P86
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Sillyman wrote:
Really? Then how come you can't walk on NPCs yet?

This is quite irrelevant. Anything you can do with walking on NPCs you can do do without walking on NPCs.

And how come several crucial features to making a BF interpreter, or for that matter, anything USABLY Turing Complete, are missing? Huh? Huh?

Which "crucial features" are you referring to?

EDIT: And check out this thread, which suggests that DROD 2.0 was already turing complete.

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[Last edited by Kevin_P86 at 10-03-2007 08:04 AM]

Sillyman
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I said USABLY. I already know about the 1-d CA thing. And the features (Actually, I can only think of one right now) I mean are: Arrays that can be referenced by a variable, or variables in variable names, or some other sort of infinite memory.

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Briareos
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Sillyman wrote:
Really? Then how come you can't walk on NPCs yet? And how come several crucial features to making a BF interpreter, or for that matter, anything USABLY Turing Complete, are missing? Huh? Huh?

You've got the C++ source code for the engine. If that's not "you can do anything and everything with it", I don't know what is...

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Sillyman
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Good point. I just wanted a nifty bundle-bits-of-code-used-to-control-single-elements device.

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Mattcrampy
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I'm not sure if this really goes against the DROD ethos, which has always been pretty much 'guy with sword kills things'. The point here is that it's a very limited ethos - there's plenty of games about guys with swords that kill things, Zelda, for example, but they're not just about that.

DROD, on the other hand, is much more focused. The important question is not 'will this be cool?' but 'does this extend puzzle possibilities?' - a sure sign that, however much stuff the game has, it's trying to be deep over being broad.

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Jacob
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I've always thought that what was great about DROD was the amazing variety of puzzles (and even the translation of non-DROD style puzzles into DROD) that can be made using a limited number of elements/monsters.

People are still making amazing and original rooms using AE elements alone, or basing holds around single monsters/elements, for example (a la Tim), or using very simple, minimalistic setups to create intricate or impossible looking rooms (a la BoyBlue or Larrymurk). (Edit: Let's not forget Oneiromancer's chromatic limitations)

We've in no way exhausted the puzzle potential of AE elements, let alone JtRH, or, even remotely, those of TCB. Without even bringing scripting into the equation. (This almost goes without saying, given that 2.0 is Turing complete).

Having loads of new elements or the ability to just script anything goes against what's cool about DROD, and actually makes it less of an achievement to be creative/original/interesting.

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[Last edited by Jacob at 10-03-2007 08:00 PM]

mrimer
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Kevin_P86 wrote:
EDIT: And check out this thread, which suggests that DROD 2.0 was already turing complete.

Oh, curious. All along I've been thinking that DROD scripting isn't Turing complete because it doesn't have access to a practically infinite amount of memory to work with. I was laboring under the preconception that we needed to add arbitrary-sized variable arrays or something to reach this point. I'd forgotten DROD already does have infinite "memory" -- in the form of room spaces that can control script states as if script variable addresses were being manipulated. Neat!

Edit: Well, AlefBet reminded me via chat that having a pre-defined static amount of rooms in a hold before a "calculation" begins doesn't really make DROD Turing complete, just like having an arbitrarily large, but static and finite, number of script variables wouldn't make DROD quite Turing complete. It's the ability of the computational device to harness an arbitrary amount of memory that is necessary for genuine Turing completeness. (At this point, we note that physical digital computers are also technically not Turing complete.) Still, DROD can be mapped to many rich problem spaces that don't require an infinite amount of space to solve.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 10-03-2007 08:39 PM]

Sillyman
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Heh. Well, you have to admit my opinions are rather biased, as I am an advocate for the existence of a position in the bureaucracy, the sheer purpose of which is to make the engine do rather unconventional stuff. To me, DROD has always been about, not only the puzzle, but the versatility. All I want (for a first step) is a script engine that can be turing complete with one character. And doesn't the room map have some sort of boundary? Well, if I have to, I'll go off to the Speaking Grounds.

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Tim
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Sillyman wrote:
To me, DROD has always been about, not only the puzzle, but the versatility. All I want (for a first step) is a script engine that can be turing complete with one character.

I think you're confusing 'versatility' and 'usability' with 'foolproof' and 'uncreativity'.
If DROD was made for fools, only silly men will play it.
I believe the current command set is so complete that adding any command will make not it more turing complete (whatever you mean by it).
The proof is left to the reader.

Anyway, if you want to make unconventional things with the DROD engine, then by definition of "unconventional", it can't be 'usable' or 'convenient'.
So, either you are using the excuse of 'unconvetionality' to hide your uncreativity, or you are just trolling. Or both.

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[Last edited by Tim at 10-03-2007 10:23 PM]

mrimer
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Tim wrote:

Sillyman wrote:
To me, DROD has always been about, not only the puzzle, but the versatility. All I want (for a first step) is a script engine that can be turing complete with one character.

I think you're confusing 'versatility' and 'usability' with 'foolproof' and 'uncreativity'.
If DROD was made for fools, only silly men will play it.
I believe the current command set is so complete that adding any command will make not it more turing complete (whatever you mean by it).
The proof is left to the reader.

Anyway, if you want to make unconventional things with the DROD engine, then by definition of "unconventional", it can't be 'usable' or 'convenient'.
So, either you are using the excuse of 'unconvetionality' to hide your uncreativity, or you are just trolling. Or both.

AlefBet and I agreed DROD could become truly Turing complete if new rooms could be added to a hold and populated on the fly (i.e. during play, like via script commands), or if new script variables could be added on the fly during play (which seems much simpler in comparison).

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 10-04-2007 09:44 PM]

Syntax
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This is fascinating. I've spoken with my boss at length about whether DROD was Turing complete or not. The infinite memory was a first point of argument. But then, it probably is in most cases.

Without a mutating self-definition, nothing can truly be infinite.

We then discussed the possibility of generating truly random numbers using DROD, in which case the space would be infinite in principle. We then (for sake of argument) decided that the number of rooms in a level could indeed be infinite.

This solved the one issue which would be in the way of DROD being Turing complete (as mrimer points out).

Oh, and he doesn't even play DROD but is one of the best algorythmists (?) I've met. We've spent hours (in pubs usually) devising ways to prove the Turing completeness of DROD.

Kevin_P86
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Syntax wrote:
We then discussed the possibility of generating truly random numbers using DROD

Computers can never generate "truly random numbers". They can only ever generate pseudo-random numbers, which can very closely approximate truly random numbers, but they will never be the same.

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