Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
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So now that 1.6 is officially out, I finally started re-playing through Dugan's Dungeon. The first time I played through I had almost no demos saved, which makes it kind of difficult to give specific help on some of the harder rooms. And I didn't want to replay the whole thing during the beta just in case there were strange conversion issues (unfounded, yes, I know). Not that I didn't replay certain parts, of course, but just not the entire thing.

So anyway, I started playing again last night. And I totally couldn't believe how big the early levels were! There were some rooms that I vaguely remembered, and they weren't hard or anything, but it was weird! And level 5 especially...I really didn't remember almost half of those rooms! Perhaps it's because there aren't so many questions on the Hints and Solutions board on the "middle" levels...those that can get past the first three are pretty good up until the levels start to get really hard.

Anyway, at least so far, it's almost like playing a new hold, and I think that's pretty cool. Not many puzzle games can do that, and it's just one of the many things that makes DROD unique.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
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A little known Oneiromancer tidbit: I have always had trouble with level 7: 3N. I don't know why, I can breeze through the rest of the level pretty fast, but for some reason that room takes me longer (in terms of dying and restarting) than any of the others.

And this replay was no different, of course.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

ClaytonW
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 961
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Oneiromancer wrote:
at least so far, it's almost like playing a new hold, and I think that's pretty cool.

Yeah, I guess that is pretty cool. But when you've played through Dugan's Dungeon as many times as I have...

It's come to the point where you can say 3:1N,1E and I can picture the room in my head. I imagine Erik is the same way.

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
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ClaytonW wrote:
It's come to the point where you can say 3:1N,1E and I can picture the room in my head. I imagine Erik is the same way.

No, not really. In some ways, you guys know the game better than I do. But I can play through the first three levels while I'm asleep.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
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Yeah, level 1 I played through lots of times for the smoke tests, but that is a pretty bare level so it doesn't really count. There were definitely rooms on levels 2-4 that I had a very hazy recollection of. They weren't the really hard ones, those ones I remembered very well. But even though they were easier, they were enjoyable because I didn't remember them. I can only imagine I will have more fun beyond level 8, because I only got to level 8 in Webfoot, and have thus only played rooms past there once ever (excluding the times I've restored to post a solution on the Hints and Solutions board).

I bet Erik could have pictured a room by its coordinates soon after building the levels...but it's been what, almost nine years, according to the level titles? And more than that, really, since they can't have all been made on 1-1-95...I'm not sure of the significance of that date, actually...just something that was made up for Caravel?

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
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Oneiromancer wrote:
I bet Erik could have pictured a room by its coordinates soon after building the levels...

Heh. Sorry, man--I just don't have that type of brain. I think it is a lazy brain that doesn't like to remember numbers.

but it's been what, almost nine years, according to the level titles? And more than that, really, since they can't have all been made on 1-1-95...I'm not sure of the significance of that date, actually...just something that was made up for Caravel?

Sorry, no significance. I picked a date that seemed about the time that most of the levels were made.

I'm just a forgetful, inprecise, anti-climactic kind of a guy.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
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Oh, I was just thinking of how after I post my holds, when people discuss them I know what the rooms are without having to look them up. But after a while, I can't really remember what they are. When making my most recent hold I also went and looked at comments on the ones previous to that, and I had to reload the holds because I couldn't remember what the rooms looked like any more!

I bet your memory is better than what you think it is...like if someone is talking about the Eight Gates of Bill or that room on level 7 that requires a "Master Intellect", do you remember the layout of those rooms? Can you picture the room that leads to the secret exit from level 4? Or I guess you could prove me wrong...

But hey, I think we are interfering with your DROD hiatus...unless you only meant from coding DROD, not from discussing it.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
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Oneiromancer wrote:
I bet your memory is better than what you think it is...like if someone is talking about the Eight Gates of Bill or that room on level 7 that requires a "Master Intellect", do you remember the layout of those rooms? Can you picture the room that leads to the secret exit from level 4? Or I guess you could prove me wrong...

Sure, I can picture rooms that way. Yeah, remembering spatial stuff isn't so bad.

But hey, I think we are interfering with your DROD hiatus...unless you only meant from coding DROD, not from discussing it.

I'm going to stop... NOW!

No... NOW!

Wait, one more thing. Uh.... Oh, forget it.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
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Okay, back to the original topic...Level 9, 2N 1E. Is this room a whole lot easier now or was I a moron the first time I played it? I could have sworn that you had to hit the orbs on the right side in a certain order, which meant you had to go through it once, draw a map up, correlate the orbs with the doors for both sets of orbs, figure out the order, and then solve the room. Now it is trivial...just hit the orbs on the right and then do the ones on the left until all the roaches come out. Was it always like this?

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
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Oneiromancer wrote:
Okay, back to the original topic...Level 9, 2N 1E. Is this room a whole lot easier now or was I a moron the first time I played it? I could have sworn that you had to hit the orbs on the right side in a certain order, which meant you had to go through it once, draw a map up, correlate the orbs with the doors for both sets of orbs, figure out the order, and then solve the room. Now it is trivial...just hit the orbs on the right and then do the ones on the left until all the roaches come out. Was it always like this?

Game on,

That's how I did it when I first encountered the room, and is still the way I do it now, although more carefully than when I first did it as being over-hasty can lead to annoying deaths from roaches, seemingly trapped in corridors, that sneak up on you from behind...

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

Greggae
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 10
Registered: 10-21-2003
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Hahahah.. I was first playing level 9 a couple days ago (1.5), saw that room, thought what you thought (that for some reason you had to hit all the orbs on the left before the ones on the right) so I was like "uh oh.." and skipped that room many times, saving it for last. I came back and hit all the ones up the right row just for fun, and whaddya' know...

Zmann
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 241
Registered: 04-21-2003
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File: 9th 2N 1E.demo (5.6 KB)
Downloaded 48 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

Gah!!! I was always under the impression that you had to hit the ones on the left before the ones on the right. Now I see it was simply trivial. The first time through, I actually wrote down what each orb did.

Oh, and if anyone wants to see my extremly long and boring demo of me hitting the left orbs before the right my first time through, I attached the file just for kicks. I suggest holding 'up' at the start of the demo to get it to full speed. Its a long-in.

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
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Heh... I kamikazed through the right, then did the left. Under no false impressions, that's me.



Matt

____________________________
What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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Registered: 03-29-2003
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Now here is something interesting...Level 16, 2E is much harder now that the queens spawn and the mothers grow on the same turn. Because now tar doesn't grow into squares that would be occupied by a roach egg. So even though the most annoying part of the room is killing that serpent, you have to be much more exact in maneuvering the roach queens to the middle of their section. I don't know if it's even possible to have the tar grow around them any more...I had to make sure the rightmost queen was on the open door, then I had to hit the orb when the queens were spawning so they wouldn't run into the section that was closed off. Then I could go kill the tar mother. So, not really that much harder, I guess, but much less margin for error. Unless I am totally missing something.

I wonder if this will make 2S 1E easier or harder? I don't think it will affect any other rooms in Dugan's though.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
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Nope, level 16 2S 1E was pretty easy, but I killed the tar mother first. Oh well.

Level 18, 2N, 2E. I hate this room. I think it took me longer to beat it the second time through than the first. I just couldn't get it right, but when I finally did it was over in a flash.

One thing I am really amazed at is how much easier levels 20 and 21 are now. All the practice with brains in all the user created holds has really sharpened those skills. Basically, the first time through those levels are really tough because, as Claythro put it, "EVERYTHING I KNOW IS WRONG!!!" But now...they are just average, even simple, brain rooms. Very interesting...at least to me.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Scott
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 578
Registered: 02-12-2003
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It is possible to get the tar to grow around the roach queens in 2E. This room is a bit tricker than before but I used many less moves this time that when I first did it. Guess I am just getting better.

bandit1200
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 290
Registered: 10-29-2003
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Well, a couple of weeks steady playing has brought me nearly to the end of level 24 and I'm gonna take a rest from it for a while. I just know it's going to take me as long to do the double tar room as it has to play the rest of the levels and I don't want to end up defenestrating the computer out of frustration.

I have to say though, that playing the Caravel version has been a much better experience than playing the Webfoot one, simply because of the checkpoints. It makes the difference between enjoyable and downright frustrating for some of the rooms. It looks nicer too. Great job Erik and the crew, it's been fun replaying it after all these years. (yeah, I know the hardest part is to come, but the (almost) 24 levels I've done have been good fun)

bandit1200
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 290
Registered: 10-29-2003
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Heh, so much for not playing for a while. I killed both tar mothers this morning and now I'm stuck between the rooms and can't get out. Grrrr.

bdcribbs
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 390
Registered: 04-08-2003
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I feel your pain... that's what happened to me my first time through.

bandit1200
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 290
Registered: 10-29-2003
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Hopefully it's not a complete disaster as I devised a simple save game just for these two rooms, so I can restart them at a number of points.

bandit1200
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 290
Registered: 10-29-2003
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At last! I finally finished! Sooner than I expected and with a little help from you lot in the form of the hints forum. Some rooms I was struggling with, yet others which were a nightmare in Webfoot were easy this time round. I'd said in an earlier post on here that I couldn't remember if I had finished the game first time round. I realised I had as I was playing through the last level, as the memory returned of every single mistake I made when playing the Webfoot version. The most frustrating room for me both times was level 25 once south twice west. I must have died 40 or 50 times before I finally managed to get it right.

Thanks to Erik and the rest of the crew for giving me sleepless nights for the last three weeks or so. Maybe I can have a go at some of the holds that's been created now. (I must be a masochist)

Martin.