Monkey
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Well, I didn't see anything like this, and I thought, Hey, maybe it would be nice for a poll for the most difficult tarstuff, so here it is!
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The poll definitions:

Tar : You think tar is the most difficult, because the edges always get you, and/or your reason.

Mud: You think mud is the most difficult, because in large blocks, they reproduce as fast as you cut them, and/or your reason.

Gel: You think gel is the hardest, because it's really difficult with a mother, because it's hard to go in diagonals to get a mother, and/or your reason.

All: You have a hard time with all of them, so it's hard to decide.

None: All of them are easy for you.
___________________________________________
Have fun voting! Closes on 6-31-2007, 12:00 PM.

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[Last edited by Monkey at 04-20-2007 11:09 PM]

TripleM
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Gel is the hardest, because we haven't had enough time to get used to it yet

Oneiromancer
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I think gel is actually more difficult without a mother.

Game on,

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Jeff_Ray...
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Actually, it is said somewhere that gel is only tar turned 45 degrees.

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zex20913
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I agree with pretty much all of the above assessments of this poll. Gel is the hardest, because it's the newest. But it's also the most fun, for me.

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Daneel
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TripleM wrote:
Gel is the hardest, because we haven't had enough time to get used to it yet

I think it's more than just that. Basically all that you need to know about destroying tar and mud is contained in a simple invariant. As was discussed in another thread though, gel destroyability is an NP-Complete problem, so we can't even hope that there is such a simple solution.

Briareos
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I was inclined to vote for gel alone, but after playing through a certain upcoming DROD 2.0-based hold sans gel as HA I just had to vote for "All of them"...

np: Jel - All Day Breakfast (Soft Money)

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NiroZ
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Even if Gel was the first tar-stuff that DROD introduced, I'd still say that it's the hardest, unless you have adders.

Tahnan
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Jeff_Ray... wrote:
Actually, it is said somewhere that gel is only tar turned 45 degrees.

Yeah, cute soundbite, but try this:

(a) Walk through narrow corridors in a field full of cuttable gel with your sword pointing diagonally. Then try it with your sword pointing N, S, E, or W. Note the difference.

(b) Walk through narrow corridors in a field full of tar with cuttable edges with your sword pointing N, S, E, or W. Then try it with your sword pointing diagonally. Note the lack of difference.

(c) Note the difference.

Krissan
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I voted tar, simply because I haven't found gel rooms that are *that* hard yet. Then again, I haven't completed TCB, so I might regret my choice.

There are some tar rooms out there that are insanely hard. And for the record - anyone who ever thought "Hey, let's make a maze/trapdoor puzzle HIDDEN under this tar" needs to go to jail. Please do not spread this abonmination of DROD to gel.

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Monkey
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Oneiromancer wrote:
I think gel is actually more difficult without a mother.

That's why I put "and/or".

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[Last edited by Monkey at 04-21-2007 02:30 AM]

Ezlo
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I don't have trouble with tarstuff that much. It's my favorite type of element to play with. I'm slowly learning Gel, but the rooms in TCB weren't much trouble for me after 15 minutes or so.

calamarain
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I'd have to say plain old Living Tar, because I've not gotten far enough in TCB to encounter Gel yet (have been working through the last few levels of JtRH, and designing my own. Didn't find the mudstuff in JtRH too bad)

But just think though - there's still plenty of other tar-like variants that can be created...

e.g. one I thought up just now - the Conscious Slime. Can be destroyed on either an edge or a corner... but only with a direct sword hit (the type that would break a mirror), swipes don't work. The babies would be evil... for they would act like roaches do when there is a brain in the room. After all, it's *conscious* slime (oooh... I like this. *posts idea to main Feature Requests*)

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Daneel
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Ezlo wrote:
I don't have trouble with tarstuff that much. It's my favorite type of element to play with. I'm slowly learning Gel, but the rooms in TCB weren't much trouble for me after 15 minutes or so.

Perhaps part of this is that the architects specifically designed the gel rooms in TCB to NOT be next to impossible to solve.

stigant
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I'll grant you that gel is newer and so people haven't figured out all the tricks yet, but I think its inherently more difficult to deal with. When mud came out in JtRH, very few people thought it was as difficult to deal with as tar. I think that gel will maintain its trickyness. As noted in another thread, its (likely that) gel clearability is NP complete (they haven't quite finished the proof, but it looks like they will). However, I'll note something else: When you cut gel, you often have two gel babies threatening you orthogonally. This is not the case with tar and mud (at worst, you'll have two threatening you diagonally which is much easier to deal with if your back is to a wall). So even when you CAN cut the gel, you have to make sure that you can get away from it too.

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Jeff_Ray...
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Krissan wrote:
There are some tar rooms out there that are insanely hard. And for the record - anyone who ever thought "Hey, let's make a maze/trapdoor puzzle HIDDEN under this tar" needs to go to jail. Please do not spread this abonmination of DROD to gel.

Well, only the evil of the evil will dare do this with no help at all. But there comes the vision token. You can see through the tarstuff with ease, if you have this. But a transparent mod is better.

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Yellow_Mage
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I voted none, because I'm that cocky.

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Jeff_Ray...
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Well, I voted none, because they're not hard at a point I will start rampaging in the house whenever i see it.

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Unspeakable
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Gel, because

1) it's easy to get yourself stuck in a position where you can't progress because the only possible cut would get you surrounded and killed by babies

2) in rooms with mothers you often have to place yourself in a specific position and wait for a growth cycle in order to get an opening to cut.

Monkey
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calamarain wrote:


But just think though - there's still plenty of other tar-like variants that can be created...

Really, the sad truth is, that's not true.

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NiroZ
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Monkey wrote:
Really, the sad truth is, that's not true.

Care to share with us why that is?

starwed
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Care to share with us why that is?

Because the current three form a complete set, in a way: For an arbitrary formation of tar, each given square is cuttable for one and only one of the three types of tar.

The fact that mud and tar behave otherwise the same, while gel/gel babies are different ruins the symmetry some, but it's worth it for puzzle potential, I'd say. And obviously new tar types could also behave differently, but the cuttability aspect would have to overlap with one of the existing types. (Although I liked the tar-which-breaks-like-a-mirror variant on the feature request board.)

Knightmare44
Level: Roachling
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Id have to say tar, its not that it is that difficult I just find cutting tar is tedious & boring in some rooms. its usually not to difficult its just time consuming. and I hate the occasional "oops" where a tar baby will spawn behind you & the backspace is pretty much useless because of your placement or sword direction. I dont want to take tar stuff away but if I see holds that have like 9 tar or mud mothers in a room & lots of places to spawn babies I do not think of fun whatsoever

zex20913
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starwed wrote:

Care to share with us why that is?

Because the current three form a complete set, in a way: For an arbitrary formation of tar, each given square is cuttable for one and only one of the three types of tar.

My alter-ego, Pedantic Man, woke up.

You do mean each given square *not fully surrounded by tarstuff*, right?

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Maurog
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Brace yourself for the new tarstuff in DROD 4.0 - The Quantum Clay, which can only be cut on squares completely surrounded by tarstuff. How do you achieve that is anyone's guess, current reactions from pre-alpha testers include "that's impossible", "worst tarstuff ever", and "best new feature since walls".

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Oneiromancer
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If I had to invent a new tarstuff...off the top of my head, it would be one that can be walked on, but when you take a step off of it, it breaks (like a trapdoor falling), creating babies as appropriate. Obviously this kind would be very easy to clear in theory, but baby placement could make it difficult in enclosed areas. I'm not sure if all monsters could clear it or not, but I kind of like the idea for something that I only came up with when I hit "Reply".

Although the biggest reason not to make a new tarstuff is that they we are almost obligated to make a new serpent of the same color and I don't know that we really need that.

Game on,

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Doom
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Oneiromancer wrote:
Although the biggest reason not to make a new tarstuff is that they we are almost obligated to make a new serpent of the same color and I don't know that we really need that.

Of course we can just clone that tarstuff idea.

Woudn't moving trapdoors/splitting serpents add a ridiculous amount of puzzle potential?

Jatopian
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Wait. Gel babies are different from others?
What the crap.

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BeefontheBone
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They're immune to hot floor tiles.

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Maurog
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No, all tarstuff babies are immune to hot tiles. Gel babies are different because they move like Rock Golems/Wubbas rather than roaches.

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