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Beef Row
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To reduce some of the more puzzling and arbitrary downmodding on the site, it might be useful to show a stat for each user showing the ratio of the number of points they've modded a post up to number of points they've modded a post down. This would reveal who is highly prone to downmodding, without actually revealing any specific mods they have made, so that the mod system can preserve its anonymity. (Also I'm curious what ratio Maurog has at this point.)

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04-19-2007 at 06:10 AM
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NiroZ
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2 problems
A) The forum does not keep track of who gave what.
B) It would discourage downmodding, or encourage frivolous modding to keep your stats up (like modding up very old posts).
04-19-2007 at 06:20 AM
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Beef Row
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NiroZ wrote:
2 problems
A) The forum does not keep track of who gave what.
B) It would discourage downmodding, or encourage frivolous modding to keep your stats up (like modding up very old posts).

Well, if A is true, then I guess this idea isn't possible anyway. However, I don't think it would have caused frivolous modding, or even discourage downmodding that much, except in those with an exceptional tendency to downmod. If your ratio is 10 to 1 vs it being 9 to 1, I don't think anyone will care about that diffrence. Also the limitation on mod points for all except moderators would limit frivolous modding.

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04-19-2007 at 06:43 AM
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NiroZ
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Beef Row wrote:
Also the limitation on mod points for all except moderators would limit frivolous modding.
Except those who already have hordes of them, and believe me, there's more than a few who do, whether by accident or otherwise.
04-19-2007 at 08:55 AM
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zex20913
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Plus, I don't think such a system would accomplish anything I'd term "good".

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04-20-2007 at 03:40 AM
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Maurog
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icon Re: Mod Ratio for users (-1)  
I'm also curious what ratio Maurog has at this point, but I'm even more curious why some people think downmodding is "worse" than upmodding. Surely reckless upmodding is just as bad as reckless downmodding, mod points should just be spent wisely and reflect your opinions on the posts involved. Some posts deserve to be modded up, some posts deserve to be modded down.

That Mod Ratio number would not tell you anything about the person.

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04-20-2007 at 04:02 PM
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Blondbeard
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Maurog wrote:
I'm also curious what ratio Maurog has at this point, but I'm even more curious why some people think downmodding is "worse" than upmodding.

Isn't there a rather obvious reason for this? As far as I've seen down-mods can hurt someones feelings. I much prefer to either post and say what I disagree with in a post, or send a PM. That tells the poster why I find a certain post bad in some aspects. To give out a positive mod point simply tells a person that he/she is doing great, and that I would like to see more posts like that in the future, which is a less comlicated message.

Yes, I know... Telling someone why you don't like a certain post can hurt feelings as well. And sometimes the reader doesn't read what you intended to write, but I think honest feedback aiming to be constructive is generally a good thing ;)

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 04-21-2007 10:24 AM]
04-21-2007 at 10:24 AM
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Tahnan
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icon Re: Mod Ratio for users (+1)  
It's true, though, that a -1 carries much more impact than a +1. If something's vaguely amusing, or relatively correct, or the like, I'll happily upmod it by one; but for me to give something a -1, it has to be pretty flagrantly problematic--vague disagreement won't do it.

If one were designing a mod system from scratch, one might try to make +1/-1 about the same, but it's not the system we have.

The upshot, though, is that I end up giving out far, far more +1s than -1s, and I suspect that even neg-mod-crusaders do the same. Which means that the proportions won't tell you much.
04-22-2007 at 04:44 AM
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Beef Row
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Tahnan wrote:
The upshot, though, is that I end up giving out far, far more +1s than -1s, and I suspect that even neg-mod-crusaders do the same. Which means that the proportions won't tell you much.

Yeah, I agree that even the crusaders probably give far more +1s than -1s. And other than vague curiousity, I'm not really wondering about things like Maurog's crusades. I'm wondering about all the -1s that have been popping up relative to no known crusades, and sometimes on rather old posts. Though I suppose this system wouldn't really hint at where that might be coming from anyway.

I don't think downmodding is inherently a bad thing. But I think there should be a reason, hopefully a knowable reason, even if it is a quirky one like a quote rainbow.

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04-22-2007 at 05:37 AM
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kie
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What about an (anonymous) reason for a down-mod.
i.e. when you click -1 there is a "venting" pop-up

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04-22-2007 at 05:40 AM
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Beef Row
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kie wrote:
What about an (anonymous) reason for a down-mod.
i.e. when you click -1 there is a "venting" pop-up

This seems like a good idea except that it might be prone to abuses where you can insult someone anonymously, and without fear of being modded down yourself.

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04-22-2007 at 05:59 AM
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Banjooie
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The trick here is 'anonymous to non-admin'. I would actually love this, even if it were non-anonymous. Cause then we don't clutter threads with 'I modded you down because this is a dumb sandwich, it is made of stupid and argh.'

And then we still get such! Or something.
04-22-2007 at 08:43 AM
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Elfstone
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icon Re: Mod Ratio for users (+1)  
May I add my tuppence worth? This subject interests me as I have been (I’m not going to use the word “victim” - too emotive) a ‘subject’ of this random down-modding.

A little while ago, I came into the Forums on a Friday night and eventually noticed that my points had dropped by one. I still remember the mixture of shock, confusion and hurt (yes - hurt) that I felt. I immediately assumed that I had caused offence, but could not for the life of me fathom what I had said that would do that. I went searching in my posts list, and discovered that someone had picked an entirely innocuous post (an entry in the alphabet game) from several months back and modded it down. I think that’s the kind of thing that Beef Row was talking about when he started this thread.

Now I’m not for a moment suggesting that I shouldn’t ever be modded down, but if someone disagrees so much with something I’ve said here, I would like to know what and why; I would like to have a rational discussion about it. I felt much the same way when 2 of my Contest Holds were voted 1. People are perfectly entitled to think that I have made really poor holds, but it is not remotely helpful, particularly to someone as new to Architecture as I was, just to vote 1 without offering some kind of explanation as to why it was so poor, some sort of useful crit.

That though is a slightly different issue from the kind of down-modding I described above. In my case there was nothing in that post that could be disagreed with - it was a game answer. Going to an old post and down-modding is fine if the writer is bumping the post and adding something to the arguments within, but that was not the case either. It appears to have been done simply out of spite, which is why it is disturbing.

With great respect to Kie and Banjooie, an anonymous “vent” ability is something I would be very much against. If anonymous, negative down-modding can be upsetting, consider how much worse anonymous “venting’ will be. Where people can say pretty much what ever comes into their heads in the heat of the moment, we are opening a door to abuse and saying “walk right in”. I accept the need for modding to be anonymous, but I firmly believe that if one makes any kind of comment or statement, one is obliged to put one’s name to it and to defend it if necessary.

No system is ever perfect and all systems can be abused, but I believe that the mod system we have here is generally a positive and enhancing one (to the extent that I have tried to encourage the Writing Site that I’m in to adopt it). If we try to restrict its use or to alter the ways in which it is used, we not only run the risk of making something technically very unwieldy, we may end up throwing the baby out with the bath water. As much as I would like to see the random, backwards down-modding, stop, I can’t see anyway of doing that without harming what we have.

As an addendum, may I comment on this:
Niroz said re “frivolous modding”: Except those who already have hordes of them. I don’t think that having a healthy supply of mod points necessarily means that one is going to spend them “frivolously”. In fact I’m completely certain that the one does not follow from the other.
:)

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04-22-2007 at 03:27 PM
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Jatopian
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The curious thing about all this downmodding is that since no one starts with mod points, whoever is doing it must be a fairly respected person on the forums. Otherwise it would've cleared up shortly after the bar stopped dispensing mod points.

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04-22-2007 at 08:51 PM
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zex20913
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Or somebody like Wolfcastle. (I'm not blaming, but using as a reference point.)

Many points, no posts.

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04-22-2007 at 10:54 PM
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NiroZ
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Elfstone wrote:
With great respect to Kie and Banjooie, an anonymous “vent” ability is something I would be very much against. If anonymous, negative down-modding can be upsetting, consider how much worse anonymous “venting’ will be. Where people can say pretty much what ever comes into their heads in the heat of the moment, we are opening a door to abuse and saying “walk right in”. I accept the need for modding to be anonymous, but I firmly believe that if one makes any kind of comment or statement, one is obliged to put one’s name to it and to defend it if necessary.
As much as I agree with you, there are some people who cannot understand (or control themselves appropriately) why they got modded down, even when there is a perfectly good reason and it was explained to them.
As an addendum, may I comment on this:
Niroz said re “frivolous modding”: Except those who already have hordes of them. I don’t think that having a healthy supply of mod points necessarily means that one is going to spend them “frivolously”. In fact I’m completely certain that the one does not follow from the other.
:)
Depends what you term 'Frivolously'. People with large amounts of mod points will more likely spend it on whims. Or at least, it's a lot more noticeable when they do.

Jatopian wrote:The curious thing about all this downmodding is that since no one starts with mod points, whoever is doing it must be a fairly respected person on the forums. Otherwise it would've cleared up shortly after the bar stopped dispensing mod points.
Well, at one point they obviously had earned something. However, it's quite likely that they've become unhappy over something, and takes it out on random forum members.
04-23-2007 at 01:47 AM
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Maurog
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icon Re: Mod Ratio for users (+2)  
Hmm, the strangest thing just happened - someone randomly upmodded a good deal of my recent posts. Not ones that I would consider worthy of modding up or down. It makes me equal parts curious, suspicious and happy. Was there some hidden lottery to win? Do I have a stalker? Who did it and why? What if they take it back? Aaargh, the mystery is killing me!

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04-23-2007 at 10:44 AM
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