Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
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I see what you mean with the terms now, after having re-read the rules thoroughly. Shall I revise the proposal again in order to render your note invalid, or do a large number of players find this rule ambiguous in its current form?

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silver
Level: Smitemaster
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if no one else has replied by the time you read this, I'd say go ahead and revise - before it affects anything


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Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3624
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Nobody has indeed replied between this reply and the previous, so this shall occur.

Proposal 304:

After a rule-change is proposed and voted on, if it passes under rule 203, the points are calculated as per rule 202. However, before adding these points to the proposer's score, if the proposal entailed making an amendment to either a mutable rule enacted previous to the proposer's turn or making an amendment to an amendment to a mutable rule enacted previous to the proposer's turn, their score is decremented by the proposal number modulus 10.

For example: if proposal 346 entailed amending rule 213 (a rule that currently exists at the time of this proposal) in some way, shape or form, the proposer would only gain 4 (10 - 6) points for passing this, whereas proposal 390 would have no penalty whatsoever.

This rule is mutable unless an amendment to this rule specifies that it is immutable.

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stigant
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1182
Registered: 08-19-2004
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Vote: Yes

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Progress Quest Progress

Ravon
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 220
Registered: 02-19-2004
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We're voting already?

If so, I vote yes.

coppro
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1308
Registered: 11-24-2005
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Wait! As written, this rule has no effect! I just realized that the rule does not specifically say that it has precedence over 202 which means that it does not. If there's no way to change it now, I vote no.

Ravon
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 220
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Chaco wrote:
After a rule-change is proposed and voted on, if it passes under rule 203, the points are calculated as per rule 202.

Yes, it does. 304 does not seek to replace 202, but rather to augment it.

silver
Level: Smitemaster
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in either case, I vote "no," as well.
that leaves only Chaco to vote.

personally, I would written this as an amendment to 202. also, while I did suggest being clear about refering to amending rules (or amendments), I'm thinking it doesn't pay to _over_specify, either. but that's just a personal comment.


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[Last edited by silver at 04-27-2007 02:34 AM]

Neathro
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 41
Registered: 04-24-2007
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Can I join? if not then this post does not exist and will vanish when i next login

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silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
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the game is all about careful study of the rules. if you are willing to do so, you already have your answer, as well.

(rules updated here: http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=15031&page=1#177911 )

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side note: Chaco, we're waiting on your vote. it becomes an abstain on thursday sometime, but it would nice if you would post before that.




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[Last edited by silver at 04-30-2007 03:26 PM]

Neathro
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 41
Registered: 04-24-2007
IP: Logged

Sillyman wrote:
Well, I was wondering if anyone here would like to play a game of Nomic. Just post here and indicate that you would like to play to sign up. The rules are as follows, and shall be kept track of in this post:

Players (By turn order):
Coppro: 10
Ravon: 0
silver: 0
Stigant: 0

Immutable Rules

Click here to view the secret text

×proposed it loses 10 points.

Edit: I am going to be absent, so you'll have to keep track of rules and points and players on your own for a while.

if you should not happen to have any point when you lose 10 uou lose none or what? being banned from proposal is bad enough...

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Ravon
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 220
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Well, there's no rule against it, so I would assume points can be negative...

Sillyman
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 339
Registered: 09-08-2006
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I have come back! I wish to join the Nomic. Commence Voting! Also, could somebody fill me in on what changes need to be made to my first post?

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Who, me?
FNORD

stigant
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1182
Registered: 08-19-2004
IP: Logged

Vote: No
I'm sorry, sillyman, but I really want to get to my turn since I'm the only one who hasn't had a chance to make a rule yet, and you'll get two turns in a row if we add you now. I'll be happy to vote yes on your re-addition to the game after my turn.

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Progress Quest Progress

silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
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Sillyman: progress and game status is here: rules updated here: http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=15031&page=1#177911

I also vote 'no' with the same side-note as Stigant - if you wait until his turn begins (so your extra turn is injected after Stigant's turn...)


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[Last edited by silver at 05-01-2007 09:17 PM]

Neathro
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 41
Registered: 04-24-2007
IP: Logged

ok, it says 200 posotive so you can negative

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Ravon
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 220
Registered: 02-19-2004
IP: Logged

On Sillyman's entrance: Vote yes, not to be rude to stigant, but he did start the thing.

Neathro
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 41
Registered: 04-24-2007
IP: Logged

I request entrance. Feel free to delay my turn to next round.

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collection of randomly selected
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Ravon
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 220
Registered: 02-19-2004
IP: Logged

Vote no. We need to get some proposals started again. I'll be glad to let you in after a couple of turns, however.

silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
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Under 105: "if a player is absent, they shall automatically abstain."

Under 201: "parts of turns may not be omitted, except when a player is absent for a week or longer, in which case their turn shall be skipped"

Given that Chaco posted his proposal 1 week + 10.5 hours ago, I shall now consider him absent for a week, skip the part of his turn where he votes on his proposal, making his vote an abstain.

Voting for his proposal is 2 yes, 2 no, 1 abstain, which doesn't make unanimity, so 304 is rejected, and he gets round((304-291)*(2/5)) points. or 5 points.

It is almost Stigant's turn, but under 301, we have one petition to settle "before the next player makes his/her proposal".

coppro's last checkin was only half and hour after Chaco's, so coppro is now absent as well.

Sillyman's:

Chaco: abstain (absent)
Coppro: abstain (absent)
Ravon: yes
silver: no
Stigant: no

(result: failure)

Neathro's:

Chaco: abstain (absent)
Coppro: abstain (absent)
Ravon: no
silver: no
Stigant:

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status soon to be updated here:
http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=15031&page=1#177911


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[Last edited by silver at 05-03-2007 10:37 PM]

Ravon
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 220
Registered: 02-19-2004
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but as 301 calls for a two thirds majority to let someone in, and an abstain does not count toward that majority, isn't it possible to say that Neathro's attempt to join has failed. Stigant's vote is the only one left, and even if that is a yes, Neathro still won't be in.

Or maybe, we have to wait just to say that Stigant's vote matters, even if we know it doesn't...

silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
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I agree that it is a given that Neathro won't pass (in the "summary" post it already says he can't apply again until the 16th, for example), but the rules don't (currently) allow aborting votes which have "given" results (in fact, even if we ammended 105, we'd have to ammend 301 separately because it explicitly says we wait for everyone to vote!)
(though we probably wouldn't ammend 105 and 301 the same way -- had Chaco voted yes for himself, he would have gotten 8 points instead of 5, so votes for rule-changes DO matter)




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[Last edited by silver at 05-04-2007 01:13 AM]

coppro
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1308
Registered: 11-24-2005
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301 just says that they have to vote, not that we need to wait.

That said, I guess I defaulted on my votes, so it can't change.

stigant
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1182
Registered: 08-19-2004
IP: Logged

On Neathro:
Vote: No
(I'll vote yes to both Neahtro and Sillyman joining after the first round)

Here's my new proposal (I believe it will be 304 since the last 304 failed, but if not, make it 305):

In the event that a player casts a dissenting vote on a proposition (ie a 'yes' vote when the proposition does not pass or a 'no' vote on a proposition that does pass), the voting player will be awarded 1 point. This rule applies to any new proposition, any ammendment to any existing rule, any proposition to change the mutability of an existing rule, and any proposition admitting new players to the game, and, in short, any other issue or proposition on which players may vote.

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Progress Quest Progress

coppro
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1308
Registered: 11-24-2005
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I suggest repealing rule 204 before attempting to pass this.

silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
IP: Logged

by rule 108, this proposed rule-change gets number 305.

I think it over-specifies - it could just say "anytime a vote is called for," but harmlessly - so I don't think it needs to be modified.

(I would think it combines with 204 - dissenting votes to a passing rule-change (not a passing player-addition vote) would get 11 points)


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[Last edited by silver at 05-04-2007 03:52 AM]

stigant
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1182
Registered: 08-19-2004
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oops, ok, I'll make this an ammendment to rule 204:
Rule 204 will apply not only to passed rule proposals but also to yes votes on defeated proposals, and any other issue on which players must vote (example: adding players to the game).

(The points awarded for dissenting votes will still be 10)

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Progress Quest Progress

Ravon
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 220
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I have a feeling that 10 is a bit much. Maybe a 4 or 5 point reward would be better?

silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
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10 is already a given, he's just ammending from dissenting-on-a-passing-rule-change to dissenting-on-anything. he could _also_ ammend the number (though that might count as two ammendments unless he only applies the new number to the new circumstances), but in principle, I wouldn't vote "no" merely because he didn't change an existing number.
just my thoughts. I'm inclined to "yes" this.


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Sillyman
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 339
Registered: 09-08-2006
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One amendment is necessary, and only one.

I want in, dangit. Wait. I see a loophole. This should be closed immediately, by either repealing rule 301, or changing it, but only after I join. The rules do not explicitly disallow just hopping in and joining. I join. I shall now wait for my turn.

____________________________
Who, me?
FNORD

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[Last edited by Sillyman at 05-05-2007 01:11 AM]