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Oneiromancer
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So, zex, Zelda EXpert, have you played Oracle of Seasons and/or Oracle of Ages for the GameBoy Color? I have both of them but still haven't beaten Seasons. I am finding it very difficult compared to the other 2D Zeldas--the SNES one especially, while an excellent game, was a piece of cake. (Although admittedly the original NES one was pretty hard the first time I played it.)

Game on,

[Edited by Oneiromancer at Local Time:12-17-2004 at 07:12 PM]

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09-22-2003 at 04:57 PM
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Mattcrampy
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I had lots of trouble with the NES Zelda up until about the third dungeon. Enough hearts and it's easy.

Is Seasons the combat one or the puzzle one? They skew different ways, y'see.

Also, having a blast playing Wind Waker. It's easy as pie, and they cut two dungeons, but it's still fun.

Matt

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09-22-2003 at 06:16 PM
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Oneiromancer
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Seasons is, I believe, the combat one. Which may be why I'm finding it so hard: they are really stingy with the hearts (and heart containers) in this one.

Wind Waker is an awesome game, I agree--not better than Ocarina of time, but I think some of the puzzles in Wind Waker are really, really innovative. But what do you mean by they cut two dungeons? The fact that there are only 5 before the last one instead of 7? Or is there something going on with the Australian release? Let's count dungeons...Zelda 1 had 8, but the Master Quest was totally redone, so that's a total of 16. The Adventures of Link had 8, the SNES one (A Link to the Past) had 3 (light side) + 8 (dark side) = 11, not counting the castle. Ocarina of Time had 3 (past) + 7 (future) = 10, not counting the Gerudo test but counting the final castle, and it also had a master quest (which we in America got for pre-ordering Wind Waker), so again that doubles the dungeons. Majora's Mask had 4 main dungeons, but each dungeon required a pretty large quest to be solved before you could even enter it, so I'd say that game had 8 dungeons. I think the GBC games each have 8 dungeons. Now, for Wind Waker...let me see...I've only played it once so I don't remember the names, but I think that the first dungeon that you come back to later should count, and then there are 5 "real" dungeons, and the final dungeon, so that's 7. There's a lot of stuff in the middle, but most of it is pretty annoying, so yeah, I would agree with that Wind Waker skimps a bit, but the puzzles in the dungeons more than make up for it, in my opinion.

Game on,

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09-22-2003 at 06:49 PM
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zex20913
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I have both the Game Boy Color games, and I have beaten both, at least three times each. I have not, however, gotten all of the rings. That involves some randomness. (I've beaten them once through, then on "linked" mode, then back by way of linked to the original.) As for Ocarina, I only know of 8 dungeons. If the final castle is counted, that would make 9. Where's ten? We agree on the first ones...

Forest Temple
Fire Temple
Water Temple
Shadow Temple
Spirit Temple.

Are you counting the Ice Cavern as well? I don't count that one, because it doesn't really have a boss, even though there is a map and a compass.

Yes, I do believe that Seasons is the combat one. But there are some interesting puzzles there as well. Yeah, Ages is definitely puzzles (Turning the tiles to red from blue in the final dungeon anyone?)

The NES Zelda had eight, 9 if you count the final, or 17 if you count the final and the master quest bit. I have not played through the Adventures of Link, because I do not have enough time, yet. Plus, the setup is somewhat difficult for me...I'm on a laptop with it, not an NES controller.

I've played the first level of the Master Quest in OoT. I need to find a gamecube...because I've only played a very small amount of Wind Waker.

Ages and Seasons do both have 8, 9 with the final, 9 1/2 if linked.

I don't have a GBA either, or friends who would have the game, so 4 swords is out of the question for now.

This is probably the longest entry I've ever written.

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09-22-2003 at 09:01 PM
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Oneiromancer
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Oops, in general I was just counting how many pieces of whatever you needed to find, I forgot that in OoT you are given the Light Medallian as soon as you go to the future. I wasn't counting the Ice Caverns...I suppose if you combine the Ice Caverns, the Well, and the Gerudo Fortress, that could be 1 whole dungeon there.

I don't know how I miscounted the NES Zelda... :twak

There's also Link's Awakening for GB/GBC, I've never played that one. I have the GBA Link to the Past/Four Swords, but don't know anyone else with the game so I haven't played the multiplayer yet.

I highly suggest, if nothing else, renting a Gamecube for a week and getting Master Quest and Wind Waker. Master Quest has some really devilish puzzles, mostly counting on the fact that you know the original dungeon so well that you won't look in new places for puzzle solutions. Actually, for several of the "adult" dungeons they actually let you skip lots of the puzzles, although I never did. And the Gerudo Training Grounds and the final castle were REALLY hard...one reason I would count the final castle as a separate dungeon especially in Master Quest. I'm talking about the 6 separate puzzle sequences here, not the actual tower/boss fights (although the Stalfos do take longer to kill, I think, so that's a bit tough when time is counting down).

Seasons definitely has some interesting puzzles...they are definitely inspired by OoT but in 2D instead of 3D. The interface is somewhat annoying though. I was having so much trouble finding my way to the flooded area because I didn't realize that Moosh could fly really far by tapping the A button continuously. Even the FAQs didn't say that...I couldn't figure out how to make him jump farther...finally accidentally figured it out though.

Sorry for my mistakes, time is taking its toll...

Game on,

[Edited by Oneiromancer on 09-23-2003 at 07:44 AM]

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09-22-2003 at 09:12 PM
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Mattcrampy
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One dungeon was an obvious cut - the blue pearl which you need the bombs for. In no other Zelda have they give you a quest item without putting it in a dungeon.

Not sure where the other one was going to be - I suspect it may have been either another temple or involved with the Forsaken Fortress.

I believe that the only change made to Zelda since the Japanese version was simplifying some of the Triforce sequences. Apparently there were chains of chests you'd need to find a Triforce chart, which were simplified for either the US or PAL release (think it was US) because it was bloody tedious.

Anyway, my count in Wind Waker goes:

Dragon Roost Cavern
Forbidden Forest
Tower of the Gods
Forsaken Fortress (here, and not up the top, because of the boss fight)
the two Temples, which I have yet to reach.

Links Awakening has eight dungeons. It was a fine game.

It's an unorthodox Zelda, certainly, but it's still fun. Although I'm still wanting my idea of three alternate worlds, with the holders of each piece of the Triforce changed around. And the Great War mentioned at the start of Link to the Past as a finale. But I suppose anything will do. Damn that Miyamoto!

I invested in a gamepad sos I can play SNES, NES and PSX games on my 'puter. Super Metroid was really, really cool, and it's hard to find. Also, Earthbound, which wasn't even released down here.

Mattamoto

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09-23-2003 at 12:59 PM
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zex20913
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I would caution you about saying "In no other Zelda..." because I recall the Hookshot in OoT being not in a dungeon, but more of a crypt, which was certainly not dungeon quality.

:D

Sorry, had to...

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09-23-2003 at 02:32 PM
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mrimer
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Just wanted to say I'm in with you guys -- long live Legend of Zelda! What a great series.

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09-23-2003 at 02:32 PM
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Mattcrampy
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I remember the hookshot - the thing is, though, that in Ocarina all the Medallions were won by finishing dungeons, as well as the jewels. This is what I mean by 'quest item', as opposed to tools and weapons and so on, as in Wind Waker more than half of these come from outside dungeons.

I say the Master Sword was in the coolest place of any Zelda in Wind Waker. You can't deny it.

Long live Zelda.

Matt

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09-23-2003 at 02:45 PM
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Oneiromancer
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Yeah. Wind Waker has style. But don't ruin it for zex, he hasn't played it yet!

Although, Matt, the next two temples you have to go to are...well...interesting. Remember having to tote Ruto around in Jabu-Jabu's Belly from OoT? Try doing that two more times, except the dungeons are about twice as big, the puzzles are actually intuitive, and the people you have with you are actually useful. Oh, wait, I'm trying not to ruin anything for zex...well, that should be okay...

Game on,

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09-23-2003 at 05:13 PM
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zex20913
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You know what, I think I will do just that when Guys and Dolls is finished...right now it takes 3.5 hours per night, and I just don't have the time for a full-fledged game within one week rental time.

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09-24-2003 at 12:16 AM
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Oneiromancer
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Or, if you have a bit of extra cash, go buy one--the GameCube just dropped in price to $99. Get Wind Waker and the OoT/MQ and you'll be in heaven... :D Then pick up Metroid Prime and F-Zero GX, and Star Wars: Rogue Squadron (or wait for Rogue Leader)...those are some great killer apps, definitely worth the system price. And there's sequels to Metroid Prime and Zelda coming up! Not to mention the GC exclusive Metal Gear Solid remake! And the Monkey Ball games are great fun too.

(Note: I am not a Nintendo fanboy...I have a PS2 also, and game on my PC...I just think there are enough good games on the Cube to justify its purchase, especially now.)

Edit: if you rent the system and game(s), just make sure you buy your memory card so that you can keep your saves if you can't beat it before you have to return it.

Game on,

[Edited by Oneiromancer on 09-24-2003 at 12:40 AM GMT: Added comment]

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09-24-2003 at 12:39 AM
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zex20913
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That may very well be the better idea...even though I've kinda been preaching the benefits of the PS2 over GCube and Xbox for a while...hypocrites are the most populous people group on the planet though, aside from homosapiens. I'll definitely consider it.

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09-24-2003 at 04:45 AM
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Oneiromancer
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Oh, don't get me wrong, PS2 wins hands down in terms of variety and number of games...but if you grew up loving Nintendo games, the Gamecube still has the all-powerful nostalgia factor going for it, as evidenced by the games I listed above. And I forgot Mario Kart: Double Dash, which looks like it will also turn out very well. And the GC might possibly have better party games than the PS2...so if you're in a dorm or have lots of roommates it could be lots of fun. Many people swear by Super Smash Brother Melee, although I've never been too fond of that series. And if you are considering getting a GBA the connectivity is neat...I still need to try it in Wind Waker but there are really innovative games like Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles that use the GBA in very interesting ways.

I definitely see the Xbox as the least desireable of the current-generation console systems. That's not to say I wouldn't accept a free one, but I definitely wouldn't buy it for myself...most of the games I would play on it are also on the PC or another console, and I don't care enough about multiplayer to have the Xbox Live be of interest.

Game on,

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09-24-2003 at 05:37 AM
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Mattcrampy
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Eternal Darkness is also a good GC game - think Resident Evil, but without the godawful control scheme, magic and about 12 playable characters.

Which reminds me - Resident Evil Remake is also on the Cube. The control scheme isn't as crappy as on the PlayStation, either.

I agree with Oneiros that the Xbox seems to be the weakest of the three from my point of view. Being a Nintendo fanboy with shallow pockets, the NGC gets my vote on that front, but the PS2 is also a quality system, with fine, fine games. The Xbox... I'm not sure. There are some games coming out that I'm very interested in, but it doesn't justify a purchase yet. For one thing, I'd have to get a forklift to get it home.

The thing I liked the most about Ocarina of Time is that each dungeon had a seperate feel - they were very distinctive dungeons. The Deku Tree was the least distinctive, but then it was also the first, so that's okay. Dodongo's was okay, I guess, but not really that distinctive, but Jabu Jabu had the sequence carrying the princess around, Forest had the four ghosts, Fire had the prisoners, Water had the different water levels, Shadow had the boat sequence and Spirit had both Links. It was an incredibly impressive selection.

I'm going to be quite excited to see the last two dungeons, because I'm really looking forward to some dungeon crawling action.

Matt

[Edited by Mattcrampy on 09-24-2003 at 02:51 PM]

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09-24-2003 at 02:15 PM
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eytanz
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Would you all mind please to move the Zelda discussion to its own thread (in the anything forum)? It's a bit distracting here since I always check this thread to see if anyone new has introduced themselves - and also, some of us never played any Zelda games (well, I played the very first one), and might do so in the future, so spoilers belong somewhere not generally accessible.

Sorry for the interruption.

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09-24-2003 at 04:49 PM
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zex20913
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To break in this new thread though, I will say that Majora's Mask did need more than 4 dungeons. The song quests do not count for me. I think they should have almost pulled a Link to the Past thingy, and warp Link through time periods. Just gimme more than 4 dungeons. And a better ending.

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09-27-2003 at 09:08 AM
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Mattcrampy
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The small amount of dungeons is most likely related to the fact that level design in 3D is considerably more complex than in 2D - hence why the latest Marios only have about 15 levels, tops. The only reason Ocarina had 8 is that it was delayed massively. No-one cares now because it was awesome, but they cared a lot then.

Matt



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09-27-2003 at 01:53 PM
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Oneiromancer
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Would you say that Majora's Mask took you a great deal less time to beat, or about the same? I think if you try to get all the masks and get the "true" ending, then it can take just as long as Ocarina. But if you just go through the dungeons, yeah, it's a pretty short game.

Game on,

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09-27-2003 at 08:04 PM
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zex20913
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I think it took me about the same time to beat, getting all pieces of heart and masks, as Ocarina took me, just to beat.

Now, whenever I play it again, my scheme is to have two temples comleted by the second time I play the Song of Time. The second time through is definitely shorter than the second time through Ocarina.

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09-27-2003 at 11:05 PM
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Oneiromancer
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zex20913 wrote:Now, whenever I play it again, my scheme is to have two temples comleted by the second time I play the Song of Time. The second time through is definitely shorter than the second time through Ocarina.

Wow, so basically you beat two temples before saving it a second time? That's pretty amazing. I don't know if I would trust myself not to accidentally unplug the N64 or something.

I still haven't played Majora's Mask a second time through though. I think I got the hookshot and then got bored and went to play another game. That was at least three years ago, before I got my PS2. One of these days I'll play it again.

Also remember that Majora's Mask took advantage of the N64 memory adapter, so they were trying to be all cool with graphics and lots of enemies on the screen at once to really add an extreme amount of content. That fourth temple was really something, though...a very unique design.

And as long as we're on the subject of replaying Zelda games, why are none of them as cool as the first one was? A whole second quest, with things being different even on the overworld? Adventures of Link let you play again, but you just had max stats and no items or abilities. Link to the Past didn't have that option, and Ocarina didn't either. The Master Quest is out now, but even then they only changed the dungeons. Of course Majora doesn't have a second quest, and Wind Waker just gives you the camera from the start of the game so you can get all the little secrets--and oh yeah, it translates some of the text for you, that's it. Obviously the Oracles games have some replay value, but not like the first Zelda.

Okay, rant's over now. Thoughts?

Game on,

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09-28-2003 at 12:05 AM
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zex20913
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I think some of it has to do with plot, or alternate characters.

In the first one, it was basically like a Mario line, save the princess from the bad guy, and the only people who had dialogue were the old man, and shopkeepers.

In all of the rest, they started adding some plot to the reason behind the kidnap of the princess/main objective, and added many other characters to the game. I think the biggest "no second quest" additive was the owl in Link's Awakening. A guide through the game, the programmers didn't want to remove it.

For Link to the Past, they may have thought that the dark world was enough that there was no need for a second quest, and I agree.

For Ocarina and Majora, I think that Majora IS the second quest of Ocarina. Many characters are reused, and the plotline stems directly from the ending of Ocarina. Of course, I could be wrong.

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09-28-2003 at 12:33 AM
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Oneiromancer
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Well, in part you're speaking as someone who hasn't played the "Master Quest" of Ocarina of Time, the one that wasn't released outside of Japan until the Wind Waker promotional thing. As I mentioned above, one of the best things about the Master Quest was that they used the exact same dungeon layout but totally changed the puzzles. This really messed with your head, because you are really expecting certain things in certain rooms. The Dodongo's Caverns, for instance, have you traverse the level practically backwards.

In other respects, I agree with you, except I don't see Majora's as a "Second Quest" in the same respect as the original Zelda but more as a direct sequel. It's still too bad that they didn't have the time or inclination to totally rework the action parts of game like they did for the first one.

Game on,

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09-28-2003 at 05:16 AM
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Mattcrampy
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I'd be hesitant to call Majora's a sequel, especially in light of how it ties into Wind Waker. It is technically, but it's a somewhat left-field story.

As for the second quests, I think the greater effort put into each dungeon since LttP meant that a second quest would be far too much work to make them distinctive. Of course they're cool, but would you prefer 16 square, colour-swapped dungeons or 8 swoopy, pretty-looking dungeons?

This argument don't apply to Wind Waker, a game I will always consider an unfinished masterpiece.

Matt (in exile)

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09-29-2003 at 08:41 AM
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Oneiromancer
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Mattcrampy wrote:I'd be hesitant to call Majora's a sequel, especially in light of how it ties into Wind Waker. It is technically, but it's a somewhat left-field story.

Now that's interesting. Why do you think Majora's ties into Wind Waker? The only real connection I can think of is Tingle being there. I don't really remember what happens in the ending to Majora's though, if Ganon was involved or anything like that.

Use the secret tags if your explanation is going to be a spoiler for zex or something like that.

Game on,

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09-29-2003 at 04:52 PM
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Thanks for reminding me, I would have forgotten. This spoils both Ocarina and Wind Waker, so be careful.

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09-30-2003 at 03:34 AM
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Hmm. The only question I can think to ask is, are you sure that the games directly follow one another? I always felt in the Zelda games that there was a lot of Hero-reincarnation going on in-between each game, that the game you are currently playing is just one of many times the Hero and Zelda are needed. Kind of like a Wheel of Time thing. Obviously Ocarina is the first game, but the NES and SNES ones could take place anywhere in the timeline.

Anyway, you're probably right.

Game on,

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"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams
09-30-2003 at 03:44 AM
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Zmann
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No Mattcrampy, that was never said by the King of Read Lions. Each Zelda game has a different Link and a different Zelda (Except for Ocarina and Majora's Mask). It specifically says in the intro in Wind Waker about a Hero of Time defeating Gannon, etc., it is now customary that when boys come to age, they get clothed in green. The Link in Wind Waker was clothed in green in this fashion, proving that this is a different Link.

Look at the intro for Wind Waker once again, and you'll see what I mean. Sorry for being so nit-picky but hey, thats what I do. :D
09-30-2003 at 09:27 PM
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Oneiromancer
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icon Re: The Legend of Zelda (relocated from General Board) (0)  
Well, Zmann, Matt's not saying that the Link in Wind Waker is the same one...

Click here to view the secret text


So, I think you might be a little confused by what Matt said.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams
09-30-2003 at 09:47 PM
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Zmann
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Oh, I see now. :D :D :D
10-01-2003 at 03:26 AM
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